...but with a different engine block.



b

 

Perhaps even a better engine block.

 

Thanks...but I'll claim to be nothing more than a Porsche customer that has completely bought into their Kool-Aid and not much more. As much as I'd love the ability to own/afford something as 'prestigious' as a Ferrari or Lambo, my heart and wallet would probably sway to a Porsche as I've always loved what the 911 has stood for: sporty, reliable and no (at least not too many) frills. It's always been as-advertised.

 

'35K miles, as a matter of fact. 16K in an 09 C2S, 16K in my Panamera S and another 3-4K in the loaner PDK cars while my C2S and P2S were in the shop for PDK Valve and Control Box issues'


Have these 'valve and control box issues ' been noted to be a problem with the PDK units before?
Jim

 

My 09 C2S PDK was a very early build car, so my assumption was that I had some initial production/software issues that required to be worked out. The Panamera was also an early build P2S, and only needed a fair amount of software updates...

 

For what its worth, my C2S has 73,500KM including many track days, sometimes in intense heat. However i do have a third radiator installed.

 

I read the thread and came back to this post.
I have had a lot of time to think about thse two gearboxes as i have both .
There are times when i prefer one over the other and have always said that the strenghs of one bring out the weakness of the other .

I can write positives on both .
I can write negatives on both .

If a driver has to pick one I think it really boils down to his driving needs and what he likes and expects from this car.

 

+! above

For some the PDK is faster and you get the feeling of being equally connected as a manual (I've owned two Porsches prior that were manual - so, I've owned both). Few here have owned both, just test driven the PDK if they own a manual. The speed difference, to me, makes the PDK more fun (and less work as there's no more 'heal and toe')!

Also, with the PDK it's easier eat and drink a hot coffee in while driving!

 

Tony Tony Tony....what reliability issues are there? None I've heard of on various forums, DE events, Porsche techs.

Check out Speed Merchants PDK race car and my 09 DE car. Speed Merchants car has 10,000 race miles on the PDK....dropped it out to change the clutch packs and saw no wear so they replaced the fluid and kept on racing.

My 09 DE PDK car sold at 23k+ miles most all hard DE miles as the car was never further than 2 hours on the street from home and was mainly a DE car...ZERO PDK issues.

PDK is not designed to be mated up to the Mezger engine. IF it could PDK could easily handle a GT3....remember PDK is in the Turbo S and Panamera V8 Turbo S.

 

Just as an side comment, PDK appears to be very reliable when kept to it's intended specifications. However, many Porsche users modify their cars to increase torque and horsepower - PDK has a limit before it slips, and even after upgrading the clutch packs, the next weak link starts to fail - and so forth. In comparison to the transmission on the GT-R, which seems much more tolerant of upgrades, Porsche's PDK transmission was not "over engineered" as we have all come to expect of Porsche components.

This is neither the fault of Porsche or their engineers. And those who modify their cars buy their own failures by taking the risk. However, it is interesting that in the same amount of time that PDK has been available on the turbocharged 911s and Panamera, the GT-R's transmission has been modified to handle far greater output.

 

Haven't been around GT-R's at the track have you...they all over heat the transmission. The weak link to the GT-R is the transmission. They can't take a full lapping session in the heat and require much more maintanance than PDK. A PDK car can, no issues, even a Turbo S w/ PDK.

 

Yes, I know there are overheating issues - and yes it is still the weak link. In fact, I recall during one of the GT-R v 911 threads that I came out and said that the double clutch in the GT-R was not ready for prime time. But I consider this a separate issue. In terms of over engineering, I think PDK is magnificent for stock purposes, but as many members love to modify their car to higher outputs, the PDK has been disappointing in supporting modifications.

 

It seems most of the guys who are having problems with the PDK are trying to mod for huge power levels. In a couple years when I trade up from my 997.1 I will be getting a 997.2 Turbo with PDK but the only upgrades I'll be performing is exhaust and ECU. The PDK seems fairly comfortable with the extra 70hp or so you get from that.

 

I'm pretty sure Tony agrees with you. I read his post as saying the reason PDK is not in the GT's is not because of reliability issues. Or turning the assertion around, "Reliability issues with the PDK are not the reason Porsche offered only manual transmissions on the GT cars."

Actually, Mike, I think we both agree with you, and I'm the driver of a manual as you know. Nothing about the PDK design looks fragile to me in the least. If I had to guess one way or the other I'd suppose the design to be intrinsically more durable than a manual transmission.

With two clutches and a standing invitation to high performance driving, I can see why they would add a third radiator just for conservatism, but that certainly means nothing bad. I admit some old line Porsche owners consider any radiator to be the mark of Satan, but I'm talking about real world reliability not our fate in the afterlife.

Gary, already damned by water everywhere

 

Been thinking about this. Without one to tear down and fiddle with, this is only surmise, but I'd give good odds of it being true:

The double-clutch transmission isn't new. It was one of the first types of transmission tried with variable torque ratios. Lots of reasons why it didn't become popular with designers, but the important point is the reason it's becoming popular fast: computers. Back in 1975 we designed a computer-controlled transmission as part of a "blue sky" exercise to estimate where technology might be in 25 years. (In other words, eleven years ago. In our past.) The numbers escape me, but all the advantages of a modern DCT were evident in that exercise including racing potential. The only hitch was it required a computer we couldn't build with the technology of 1975.

Modern dual-clutch transmissions vary widely in the sophistication of their computers. For example, people seem to ***** a whole lot about the DCT in Ford products, while people who try the Porsche PDK come away impressed. Not all of us buy PDK, but the only 'bad' things we say about it are the things it isn't. (It has no third pedal and no stir stick. Really out of criticisms after that.) Moreover, the widespread licensing and cross-manufacturing in the industry treats the mechanical parts of these boxes as being distinct from their controllers.

This intolerance of mods is a new one I never heard before and I'd like to ask whether people are blowing a new chip for the transmission, or just changing the engine and hoping everything works? That's like changing to forced injection and not modifying the engine computer. The modern DCT's are all a combination of iron bits and silicon bits. The iron may be more than strong enough for your mods, but if you don't update the computer appropriately, the result won't work. Well, not reliably anyway.

Someone ask that race team if they're running stock microcode on their PDK. On second thought, race teams don't usually answer such questions, but it is extremely unlikely that they're running a street version of the controller code. I can't swear to it of course, but my intuition says you'd get acceptable results with the PDK and reasonably modded engines if you modified the controller to deal with the extra power without frying the clutches.

Gary