Actually, that's way over what I've seen in the last three years. You're probably only a little younger than me, so you know we always have to allow for the difference between what a dealer pays for a car and what he has to charge for it. It's how they stay in business and has nothing to do with any loss in value if you drive the car out the service bay and back in the front gate and use it as a trade-in. We also never get back the state charges, the tax and license associated with a transaction.

So let's set those aside for a minute and just consider selling prices. A 2009 C2S like mine had an MSRP of about 100k. Depends on options, but that's close, give or take a couple of thousand. With reasonable bargaining skills, you could drive away with one for 90k, not counting tax and license. We bought ours within that model year with 11,000 miles on it and paid an out-the-door price (the way we always negotiate) that would amount to about 80k for the car itself. That a chunky 10k in the first year but certainly not shocking.

Two years later, that same dealer is advertising 2009 Carreras for around 80k still. I can't find an exact match of options though. The ones being offered all have one of the expensive options over my car. Examples: 2009 C2S with PDK and 2009 C2S Cabriolet, both with about 20k miles. The effective loss of market value would be the value of one of those options over my car plus whatever we think the dealer might accept below his advertised price. As one data point, we talked him down $5k from the advertised price when we bought ours. So figure a low mileage Cab otherwise like my Coupe could be had for $75k tomorrow morning. The value of the Cab option is at least $5k and maybe as much as $7k (MSRP delta is $10k for cabs). The value of PDK is more like $3k I believe though I don't shop two-pedal cars much. Besides the options, this dealer only shows the 'cherries', the best of the market because of their area. The mileage on both of these is low. That's worth as much as ten percent if the rest of the condition matches, and it would with this dealer, else they'd job it to some other dealer.

Skipping all the arithmetic, but using those cars as indications of the market, I'd suppose you could pick up my car right now for a little under $70k if it had the same mileage. It doesn't, because we use it as a daily driver, so we have 30,000 miles on it. That means you could probably get our car for about $65k after negotiating with a comparable dealer.

Still ignoring the transaction cost, the car's market value has dropped by $15k in two years since we bought it, and by $25k since new. Here's that three-year-old car you're concerned about. The actual depreciation is 28% of the 90k I'd have paid when it was new.

On top of that we have transaction cost of course. Every time we turn over a car, the dealer has to get his share, so he won't pay me $65k for a car that will go out his door at that price. Depending on the deal and how badly he wants to move the car I'm planning to buy as part of a trade-in, he might give me as much as $62k or as little as $60k. If you think of tax and license as part of your depreciation (which I normally don't), then you have to figure I'd have paid the dealer $90k for this car new, but my cost would have been about $100k. That means my cost of ownership for this car would have been $38-40k for three years, plus operating cost and annual taxes and fees. That gets it up around the 40% at the low end of your estimate, but all those are so different from place to place, it's tough to include them in any estimate of depreciation, so I'd stop at:

Three-year drop in market value=28%
Dealer's part of transaction cost= 5% more. Depending on your deal.

Still nothing like as bad as you feared.

Me too, and Cindy as well before she had a stroke. I find the gears and clutch of a Carrera to be very pleasant to operate in traffic and I have to go down the busiest freeway in the world every time I visit the dealer.

Obviously, I can't help you with the personal part of that assessment, but I can say that Cindy finds 2009 C2S with PASM to be comfortable despite her stroke and objectively it's quite comfortable compared to other sports cars, including the other Porsches we drove and especially compared to a GT3. I have seriously considered a GT3, but only because Cindy's health means we really can't use the grand touring abilities of a Carrera and realistically our car is only a toy now for an old man with a bad back who likes to track his car twice a year. I declined the GT3 simply because tracking it twice a year isn't enough to justify the rougher ride on the way to the country club the other 363 days each year. (Not to mention, the difference in performance at the limit seems to be within the margin provided by driver skill, since I beat the GT3 in the next pit parking place by 4 seconds in the last time trial. That took the edge off my motivation to buy a GT3.)

Bottom line, the advice you asked for: First, I agree with Konakai. No Ferrari in your budget range is going to be suitable for touring use. At our ages, I'd look for something around a 599 and they are way over that target you set.

You could wait for the 991, but in terms of depreciation you'd be on the high end of the Porsche range because there won't be much negotiating off the MSRP for quite a while. You would be limited to a base model in any case, although that's not really an issue if you get the options you want. Whether you're talking about Ferrari or Aston or Porsche, the 'base' is so far above other cars as to make the term an insult.

The 2012 C2S with PASM is a good match for the use pattern you described, Len. The 'base' Carrera would be fine also, as long as it provides PASM which is included with the S. Either provides a very comfortable ride, torque that will match any BMW (including the diesels), and as much sports car behavior as you can wish for.

Incidentally, I haven't found maintenance to be expensive at all. Not in this range of car. I'll bet my costs have been no higher than for a BMW. Certainly, the dealers we've visited provide much better service than our nearest BMW dealer, though I have no idea how that comparison travels.

Good luck,

Gary

 

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Beside Porsche, have a look at Mercedes CLS550 starting at 71K or CLS63 AMG from 95K+ This will be a good grand touring car that comfortable, quiet, easy to get in and out for your wife and problem free for years.

Less sport but more luxury and still very fast on straight.

 

Again, thank you for the very helpful, well written replies. Gary, thanks for taking the time to provide such a thoughtful, detailed reply.

My first dream car is/was the Ferrari Testarossa. Couldn't afford it then, but it captivated my imagination and when I finally had an an opportunity to drive it for an extended period I was hooked. Today that car remains a highly controversial car, some love it, others hate it. It is old, with dated technology, dated interior, and suffers from extremely expensive engine out service costs, and has two significant potential flaws - both the transmission and rear differential have been known to fail catastrophically at great expense. Even more damming is the simple fact that any one of dozens of modern cars have higher performance envelopes, are far more reliable and have far better safety and creature comfort.

Still, over the years my body isn't what it was 25 years ago, and I have some "service cost" issues that make me a bad financial investment as well. And even a casual comparison makes it pretty clear that my wife can find dozens of "better values" walking through the local mall than I can offer. But our 40 year marriage vows were for "better or worse" and while we've both honored those vows, it's pretty clear that I got the better end of the deal.

So I'm struggling with letting go of the 25 year dream - the TR. For my needs I won't get anywhere near the performance capabilities of any car, including my wife's BMW 335d. So the issue is one of looks/nostalgia versus current technology and comfort. Logic clearly suggests a more modern, comfortable car (drove a friend's Bentley GT - quite a machine, still no third pedal), while the other part of me clearly would smile ear to ear every day to see a TR in my garage and to drive it would be an occasion. Yes, it's not a cross country tourer, nor a good investment, but after reading your very helpful posts at least I can now frame the question clearly - be Don Quixote and follow the old dream, or face current circumstances, and the changes that time have brought and move to the best alternative for today.

You have collectively reinforced my Porsche interest. As an aside, my 1987 Porsche 911 (with the Whale tail) was bought in late August 1987. At that time I was "on top of the world", in my late 30s and although I didn't realize it, close to the peak of my professional career. Less than two months later the stock market crashed and took most of my net worth with it. I sold the car to pay the bills. I had 7 weeks with that car, hand washed it every time I drove it, and the scars of that event make considering any Porsche similar to pulling the scab off a wound.

Thanks to all for answering a question far deeper than which car to buy. Great forum, great support. Thanks to all.

 

Not much to add here except your fascination with Ferrari vs Porsche. Ferrari is in my opinion a car that has the ability to stir the soul, quicken the blood, inspire a new-found taste for Italian food, and break the bank when it is time to have the required maintenance and upkeep performed. A Porsche is not inexpensive to maintain in anyone's mind, but I am confident that the cost of maintenance is much less when compared to similar maintenance requirements of a Ferrari. Add to that the piece of mind of the reliability (new or CPO) of a late model Porsche at a much more reasonable price. Good luck with your search. Considering we are both in NC I hope to run into you at a future Porsche event.

 

To the OP:

I can appreciate your dilemma. I've made several purchases years to decades after I first set my sights on them, when I finally had the funds, and it was generally satisfying, sometimes exceeding expectations and sometimes falling a little short.

And with cars, there is a certain appeal to older cars, with their raw simplicity. But if I was in your shoes, rather than get an older car with all of the negatives it would entail (maintenance/repairs, safety, etc.), I'd still go for a newer car which retains a somewhat classic feel. IMO, the 911 (996, 997, or 991) fits those criteria well, but it really comes down to what appeals to you.

Good luck!

 

I'm a retired mechanical engineer, retiring 3 years ago at age 57. I've been driving Porsches since 1975. Now with a lot of time on my hands, I decided to review and work through my personal "bucket list". One of those items was to own and drive a Ferrari. I researched the subject thoroughly and concluded the most bullet proof Ferrari that I could afford was a slightly used F430 with the F1 semi automatic gearbox. I found a nice example, 2006 Coupe with 2900 miles. I traded my 2003 911 Turbo that I had owned since new, and had a great 33,000 miles of fun. The Ferrari is a whole other experience than a Porsche.

The pros are: 1) unbelievable sound track as that low inertia V8 rips to its 8500 redline, 2) the slick shifting F1transmission that made track days great fun, 3) the sumptuous interior leather that is several grades better than anything on a Porsche.

The cons are: 1) a car that despite its pedigree is under engineered in so many ways compared to a mass produced Porsche. 2) I live 150 miles from the nearest dealer. Each vist was a 300 mile roundtrip. In my year of ownership, I made 3 trips to the dealer for maintenance and minor repair. This out of a total of 4400 total miles driven during the year. 3) there are design problems that carried over for many years from the 355-360-430, most notably inevitable failure of the exhaust headers. These are covered under the 80,000 mile emissions warranty, but can result in a catastrophic engine failure if apiece of the pre-cat is sucked back into the cylinder past the exhaust valve. In 4400 miles I replaced the exhaust mounts 4 times. I replaced the muffler after it failed at 7000 miles - $3000 for parts plus my own labor. If they can't get these simple mechanical elements right, what about the more complex systems? 4) the parts prices are ludicrous. Every black painted switch in the interior will have its paint turned to goo due to heat. They have had this problem since the 308! There is a company that can refinish these items. Want to replace that simple gooey drivers door release lever? It's only $600 dollars for a small plastic latch. 5) a Ferrari is not a road trip car. I just completed a 2000 mile trip to visit relatives over the holidays. I wouldn't even consider this in a Ferrari due to scarcity of dealers. Trying this in a older Testarossa would be ridiculous due to reliability, scarcity of dealers and the long wait for ridiculously priced parts.

For these reasons I traded my F430 on a new 2012 911GTS. A car I can drive on long trips and enjoy at a few track days every summer. Owning a Ferrari is akin to dating a smoking hot super model - fun and exciting most of the time, but she can be totally unreasonable at the worst possible times. They say you "date" a Ferrari, but you can "marry" a Porsche.

Do what YOU want, but do it with your eyes wide open.

 

Kona and Seapar are spot on. Consider a CPO 997.2S. Can't go wrong.

 

To the OP: Given that you like your wife's BMW, you might consider an M3 for yourself. The BMW 'ride' is a softer/gentler ride. If you prefer Porsche, you ought to consider the new 991 Carrera - it is in your price range and is a a softer/gentler car.

 

I thought of the M3, but he might not be happy with its torque curve, since the torque is what he likes in his wife's car. A 1M might fit better, but then I'd readily take a Cayman R over that.

 

Torque aside, the M3 has a competent/fun engine. Besides I thought of ride, not performance, as that seems where the OP is focused. Recall that he consider that a Cayman has 'a lot of vertical motion', which I interpreted as harsh. I do not consider the Cayman harsh at all.

A comment on suspension comfort:

All stock Porsche suspensions (PASM or not) are very comfortable. People often confuse cushiness with comfort. An old Buick has a cushy suspension, giving an initial feeling of comfort, which becomes fatiguing on a long road trip. A Buick suspension is a low pass filter, meaning it filters high frequency bits, such as sharp bumps and expansion joints, but it lets low frequencies through, which yields a boat-like-ride with critically fatiguing low-frequency energy.

Most people riding a well controlled sports car suspension (like Porsche's) feel the high frequency bumps around town and consider the suspension harsh. It is not. They are actually riding a very solid/stable platform that is communicating to their bodies very little fatiguing low frequency energy, as there is no significant energy in the high frequencies. A drive from SF to LA in a cushy Buick is quite fatiguing. The same trip on a 911 is not fatiguing at all. I have experienced both.

P.S. - The new 991 adds a layer of cushiness on an otherwise stable/competent suspension (or so we hope). That is achieved using nonlinear spring designs and nonlinear/asymmetric shock valving. The price of that is of course road isolation, but some want just that.

 

BMW's, Ferraris and Porsches are all completely different cars and putting them all on the same list confuses the the question of which Porsche do you recommend. If you want a Ferrari-like Porsche buy a Turbo. If you want a BWW-like Porsche buy a Panamera. But if you want a Porsche that meets your stated finacial requirements get a 911 in any of the 20 some odd flavors they come in. Just keep in mind it's nothing like a Ferrari or a BMW.

 

A 997.1 turbo is well within your price range. If you want a road car (turbo torque), with some exclusivity (tt), and are concerned about depreciation, I think one of those cars will hold up very well over time, if bought right. The Mezger engine will go and go, and if you get bored, you can upgrade the suspension and engine very easily.

 

I was reading through this thread and thinking 997 Turbo all the way. particularly as OP stressed his need for comfort, which against a GT3 benchmark it certainly is far superior while still remaining a proper Porsche

 

Good luck finding a 1M. The current (E82) body style 1M was a one year production run. The car sold out months ago.