Hey all, So i am looking to upgrade my suspension, but just purchased my 997.2 without PASM and dont want to break the bank right now. I love the KWv3 kit as i have driven a carrera with it on. I dont track my car, and dont plan to. If you were to make upgrades to your suspension, what would you do first if you were to phase it out and get the biggest bang for your buck? what is the most noticeable mod? From what i found, some say springs/coilover kits. I know the KWv3 is a kit, can you buy it in pieces? for example springs first, then shocks, etc...

 

I would look at things in stages:

Stage 1 - better alignment; engine mounts.

The max alignment on porsches is a joke. Put in new arms from suncoastparts to increase max camber - particularly in front. Adding more front camber relative to rear will reduce understeer. Also go to a race alignment shop. They will do a much better job than the dealer or local tire dealer.

The rs engine mounts are actually very good. They will improve handling overall without reducing comfort too much. If your go add coil overs later you may need to go back to stock engine mounts (I did when I added kws). But with stock springs, new engine mounts make a huge difference. Again you can get these from suncoastparts.

Stage 2 - new springs and / or Swaybar.

Very simplified - both springs and swaybars reduce roll which in turn improves handling. As with alignment you need to improve the front / rear bias of the car. In general you need to increase stiffness in the rear relative to the front to reduce understeer. Most spring packages (h&r and eibach) both increase spring rates on the car as a whole while also increasing relative stiffness towards the rear.

Sway bars can do the same thing. Aftermarket sway bars are stiffer overall. They are also adjustable (whereas springs are not). I would set the front sway bar looser than the rear to increase rear bias (in stiffness). I would steer away from h&r bars as they are solid and way too stiff overall. Other hollow bars (eibach, gmg gt3) are better options.

Stage 3 - coilovers

Coilovers are integrated springs and shocks. The advantage of integrating the springs and shocks is both are designed to work together. If you are ever contemplating doing stage 2 before stage 3, then you may just want to do sway bars and not springs. You may have to ditch the springs if you get coilovers later.

Coilovers have another advantage - adjustability. I would recommend triple adjustable coilovers (bump, rebound and height). Again simplifying - bump effects ride quality; it adjusts the reaction of a car when it hits a sharp bump (the upward movement of the shock). Rebound effects high speed stability (and also comfort to some extent). Height is self explanatory. The disadvantage of double adjustable shocks is that if you do not like the presets of the manufacturer you are sol. For example, many people find jic double adjustable shocks and kw shocks too stiff out of the gate. There is no real way to ameliorate the problem with the jic's. The kws are infinitely adjustable. For that matter most bilsteins are also only double adjustable and - to me- have the same problem.

I really like kws. I've used them on multiple bmws and my Porsche. The only issue with the Porsche is that the spring rates used by kw are really stiff. This can be cured somewhat by making the bump and rebound somewhat looser than the initial settings. However if you combine the kws with stiff sway bars or engine mounts you may be in trouble. I run kws with stock sways. I also removed my rs engine mounts. I love the result now, but it took some tinkering to get there. The car has very little understeer, feels like a go cart and doesn't kill me on very bad la streets.

Hope this helps. Most people focus on engine modes, but I find the art of suspension tuning as rewarding.

 

Vey helpful! Thank you! Im thinking A coilover kit with sway bars would be a great fit. If you go with the kw coilovers, is that part of the full kwv3 suspension kit? If not, which ones should I be looking at and how much should I expect to pay for them?

 

Lots of new posters popping up on the board lately...........there's a wealth of info if you use the search function..

https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...red-turbo.html

 

Can's thread on Bilstein's is quite good.

1. Driving class
2. Alignment, corner
3. Stiffer rear sway

 

Kw sells only coilovers - ie you purchase springs and dampers at the same time. They don't come a la carte.

I hesitate to post because I hesitate to give advice. Something about your question inspired me.

Generally do a search and if possible ride in other members cars. Be careful of anyone recommending one solution over another ie bilstein vs kw.

What I tried to do (which others don't) is try to highlight that you have choices other than coilovers, springs or swaybars alone. My general recommendation (and I hesitate to give any) is to start with small changes that don't cost much money, see what you like, learn and then make more (expensive choices). I find that the cheapest option is a good alignment (and options which allow you to get wider range of alignment adjustments). The next cheapest are engine mounts. Beyond that you enter a whole other world of more expensive options (swaybars, sprins and coilovers).

Nuff said.

 

I completely agree! After all, what is the point of all the extra HP if the car is in the air all the time...

SPEC-T,

One thing you have to understand before going into suspension mods is that the standard suspension works as a well tuned "system" and once you start changing bits and pieces, it can quickly degenerate into changing other bits and pieces just to keep the "system" going.

To illustrate my point, here is a story (know that this is pure fiction, all resemblance to a real person and events is purely coincidental) :

Here is the story of Mr. "tc" (a randomly picked anonymous name to protect the innocents).

Mr. "tc" was thinking that just changing the springs on his 997.2C2S (which is _dirty_ orange and not Pure Orange BTW, just to dispel any idea you may have here about the real identity of this completely made up character) would be a fairly reasonable endeavor since a set of Eibach's is only about $300... Changing those would lower the car and remove the OE "hummer look" and make the car a little stiffer for the track - so it all sounded great, in his head...

First of all, once "tc" got the springs, he needed to install said $300 springs or get someone to do it for him. Being the very tall, strong, handsome, lean, and macho DIY type (picture James Bond in a smoking jacket with a Snap-On torque wrench), it took him 6 hours and 5 (very, very small, tiny really) beers to dispatch the job, which is not bad at all. After all, if he had gotten someone to do it for him, that would have been a couple of hours out of his pockets (about $200 let's say). Once he had installed the springs and essentially torn off the whole suspension and put it back together again, he now had to get the car realigned, so that was another couple of hundred bucks, no can DIY there obviously (at least not easily).

So, "tc" was about $800 down at this point in time (he DIY'ed but has to count the tools he had to buy to pop the ball joints and the torx sockets, and the bolts he lost, and the...). So $800.

But once the car started steering straight again, "tc" quickly realized that he now had a lot more camber but it was not really the values he wanted for the track (they would not be good for the street either in case you wanna know). To get what "tc" really wanted, he needed new lower control arms in the front and new dog bones in the rear. Off course, I had to install all this $1,600 of go fast bits again (he now had all the tools after all), and get the car realigned by his now very friendly local tuning shop, pay $200 for the alignment and pass go... $2,600 total by now.

But wait, after doing all this, and after 3 months had elapsed, "tc" realized that his spanking new rear PS2's were now completely shredded. You see, "tc" did not know that lowering the car not only changes the camber to all four wheels but it also affects the toe in the rear, so much that in the rear, you can't really get the toe back to something acceptable - and it eats the tires. To save the on the next set of tires, "tc" needed a new set of rear toe links for another $500, and install those, and get yet another $200 alignment... We are now at $3,300 sacrificed to the suspension gods.

Note that, at this point, "tc" probably had the best aligned car in the whole country...

Oh yeah, and did I talk about the sway bar preload that lowering the car created? "tc" got that one big time when the sways started to unload in the middle of turns at the track, that was fun... $400 of adjustable droplinks and "tc" was in business for good... Might as well change the sway bars at this point too right? So where is he? About $4,500 now?

The end. All done. For now. What an adventure!

I hope you enjoyed the story, in case you wonder, "tc" is now panhandling to pay for tires. He put all the suspension mod receipts in an envelope, dipped it in race gas, lit it up, and has been enjoying smores on a paddock fire ever since... Just so we are on the same wavelength, I am really not trying to discourage you... "tc" needs more people in his support group after all... he had a lot of fun doing this, learned a lot, and now has a car that handles decently... I mean great...

Which probably buys me some slack to write the following suspension mods best practices:

1. Before starting the project, talk to someone who understands what you are trying to achieve and can get you a good estimate of the costs. (this is a good place)

2. If you decide to go into this, don't go the incremental way. Call RSS right now and tell them to sell you everything they have, because you will need it. If you don't buy it all at once, at least get a decent size loan right away, as bankers really hate people grovelling for extra loans just to "finish a project". In essence: Go big or go home.

3. If you are thinking about doing this as a DIY, make sure you have lots of time, space, tools and beer and that you do not live far from an alignment shop.

4. If you do not have a therapist on retainer, get one NOW. Mod'ding is an addiction and accepting you have a problem is the first step...

Hope this helps,

T.

P.S.: Does anyone know where "tc" can get a good deal on MCS three way coilovers?

 

I don't think there are any budget ways to improve the suspension. The only inexpensive (more or less) retrofit is lowering springs. Drawbacks are harsh ride, grounding the bottom of the car and lack of adjustable geometry in the stock suspension components. If you want significant improvements, expect to spend a lot of money and accept reduced ride quality.

 

Hahaha. You guys are killing me. Couldn't stop reading!! : ) Awesome write ups to our fellow members above!!

Since this is my 3rd Porsche. I had my hand full of wrong moves.

This is what I did on my suspension:
1) max RoW alignment
Track day
2) Eibach Sway bars & RSS drop links
Track daysss
3) Got Techart springs then sold them to another member - brand new in box.

Winter break - didn't do anything for the rest of the year. Go with springs if you just want the lowered look and if don't think you want to get coilovers??. I didn't like the ride except on the street with sport on. Remember the install of spring and shock is not cheap!
Now, I got the full RSS setup and Bilstein Damptronics with advance alignment. Im trying to stop for a while and enjoy the setup.

Anyways, you've come to the right place. I've learned a lot on here. Cheers!

 

These are all amazing pieces of feedback. thank you all so much. I think i will go with the general advice here and start with the inexpensive suspension mods first. That would be RS Engine mounts and and sports calibration.

How much am i looking at for a well done calibration? i have heard anywhere from 350 to 900?

Are there any drawbacks? From searching i see that people say much fast tire wear. Im ok with that as this is not my everyday driver. Does a calibration really make that much of a difference on just calibration with stock suspension?? i dont see how.

Thank you again!

 

With stock suspension, you can get around -1 camber in front (or max them) and set within -0.5 in the rear. Toe is the important factor here. I like my 0 front toe and +0.15/side in the rear. My tires last a long time with these setting and it track well. How long your tires last will really depends on how you drive.

 

West end alignment in la charges around 250 for an alignment. Corner balancing (only needed if you lower your car) is another 100 or so He does everything by hand. Amazing work. Literally he is the "yoda" of the alignment world in la (check out his Honda civic with moton uspension).

Someone here brought up a good point, avoid lowering your car unless you get new control arms and end links. Ie if you lower your car you really mess up a lot of things.

Mikli gave good advice re alignment with stock arms. Maxing out front camber does make a big difference. Best initial mod for me was adding new adjustable control arms and running 2 degrees of camber all around with zero toe (note Anything more than this will increase Tire Wear) Adjustable control arms run around $1000. If you do anything with your suspension later, this mod will not be wasted.

Engine mounts are around. 300 for parts and another 100 for installation. I was really amazed with stock suspension how this improved handling. Didn't know stock hydraulic mounts were so "fluid". Normally engine mounts are the last mod for anyone doing suspension tuning, but the Porsche springs and stock mounts are so soft, I found they were a great cheap mod out of the box. You'll notice a little rumble at idle, but it's kind of enjoyable - like sitting in a 964 Porsche.

Again - take all advice at face value and find a good local shop where you can test before you buy. For example Autotalent and speed art in la have dozens of Porsches in house at any given time with various mods. Theyll always be happy to take you for a ride to help guide you through the modding process.

Good luck.

 

I'd strongly advise against buying the KWs. I had a set on my m5 and they failed in multiple ways. I spent over 10 hours trying to source replacement inserts and parts from KW but they don't sell them to the public! I went with Bilsteins instead and they seem to be much higher quality.

 

Tcouture, I don't know anything about suspensions, but that is a great post! (sorry for the hijack)

 

+1 .. Lots of good info.

I am in the same boat as the OP... but not sure what to do myself. Having a better profile doesn't seem to be worth the trouble.