View Poll Results: How Many Times Have You Tracked Your 997?
Never
40
50.00%
1 to 5 track days
19
23.75%
6 to 20 track days
12
15.00%
21 to 50 track days
6
7.50%
Over 50 track days
3
3.75%
Voters: 80. You may not vote on this poll
How Much Have You Tracked Your 997?
#46
05-29-2012, 05:16 PM
I know what you mean, that's why we got the CR as a part-time track car. Since the 911 is a cab, I don't want to track it as much, but I also can't own a 911 and never track it - that would be heartbreaking.
#48
05-29-2012, 10:36 PM
- Do you turn PSM off?
- What mods do you consider essential for the track?
Nothing is essential. Safety is most critical and after leaving the track at high speed due to mechanical failure, I would personally not track a cab (I own one and have tracked it) nor track without full harness, roll bar, head restraint.
Note, my speeds maybe different than yours, so the decision about how much risk to accept and where in your personal envelope you are driving are most assuredly different.
.
- What mods do you consider essential for the track?
Nothing is essential. Safety is most critical and after leaving the track at high speed due to mechanical failure, I would personally not track a cab (I own one and have tracked it) nor track without full harness, roll bar, head restraint.
Note, my speeds maybe different than yours, so the decision about how much risk to accept and where in your personal envelope you are driving are most assuredly different.
.
#49
05-29-2012, 11:52 PM
I agree with you....its all about safety first.....personally I would not track a cab either....I removed my Brey/krause harness bar to put in a roll bar and will be puting the stock steering wheel with airbag back in. As far as head restraint though I was not considering in the novice group....are you saying I should consider that as well?
Note, you do not want harnesses unless you are sure the roof is not going to collapse, so always go with roll bar first then harness and HANS.
I was out of the novice group prior to switching to a GT3.
#50
05-30-2012, 08:14 AM
If you are going to a harness then definitely add your favorite head restraint (HANS for myself). I do not think a 3 point belt is effective in a roll over, with windows open (again that is my personal opinion), I have seen a rollover with 3 point belts work well (no major injuries) but afterward both occupants decide harness + HANS + roll bar is the only way to go.
Note, you do not want harnesses unless you are sure the roof is not going to collapse, so always go with roll bar first then harness and HANS.
I was out of the novice group prior to switching to a GT3.
Note, you do not want harnesses unless you are sure the roof is not going to collapse, so always go with roll bar first then harness and HANS.
I was out of the novice group prior to switching to a GT3.
#51
05-30-2012, 08:18 AM
One does not need to provide a HANS device but one should have the same level of harnesses so an instructor can bring their HANS (or similar device). I have 2" HANS specific straps on the driver's side and 3" (for folks with and without HANS) on the passenger side to allow most flexibility (3" straps work fine with HANS but also can be used without).
#52
05-30-2012, 04:40 PM
In getting the 997 ready for the track, I had the brake fluid flushed, and the shop (which emphasizes racing) told me that they adjusted the brake balance by increasing the rear braking force by 5%.
They didn't ask my preference before they did that, but they said that guys who track their 911s tend to prefer that tweak because it makes the brakes feel stronger and reduces the dive of the front end when braking.
I can't say for sure that I feel the difference - maybe its there, but there's also the power of suggestion.
What do you guys think? Is this a good thing? Any risks or other downsides?
Related article: http://stoptech.com/technical-suppor...alance-matters
They didn't ask my preference before they did that, but they said that guys who track their 911s tend to prefer that tweak because it makes the brakes feel stronger and reduces the dive of the front end when braking.
I can't say for sure that I feel the difference - maybe its there, but there's also the power of suggestion.
What do you guys think? Is this a good thing? Any risks or other downsides?
Related article: http://stoptech.com/technical-suppor...alance-matters
Last edited by Manifold; 05-30-2012 at 05:03 PM.
#53
05-31-2012, 06:41 AM
I am no expert, but I have never heard of any brake bias adjustments available on the 997 line other then the cup cars. Can you find out how they did this other then running a pad with more bite in the rear.
#55
05-31-2012, 07:03 AM
Related question for everyone. I had the brake fluid flushed with racing fluid in both the CR and 911 this week. The 911 brakes feel firm, but the CR brakes feel mushy, with more pedal travel than before. The shop told me that the CR brakes will feel firmer after the brake fluid heats up and expands, and that it's desirable to leave some room for that expansion, but they can firm it up now if I prefer (at no extra cost). Have you guys had a similar experience? Should I ask them to firm it up now? I don't want to spend the weekend at the track with mushy brakes.
#56
05-31-2012, 07:47 AM
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The guy was rambling, but he seemed to be saying that it can be done in two ways, one with a change in the car computer setting, and another with a change at the brakes themselves (not involving the pads or disks). I'll likely be talking with him again today or tomorrow, and will try to get more clarification.
Related question for everyone. I had the brake fluid flushed with racing fluid in both the CR and 911 this week. The 911 brakes feel firm, but the CR brakes feel mushy, with more pedal travel than before. The shop told me that the CR brakes will feel firmer after the brake fluid heats up and expands, and that it's desirable to leave some room for that expansion, but they can firm it up now if I prefer (at no extra cost). Have you guys had a similar experience? Should I ask them to firm it up now? I don't want to spend the weekend at the track with mushy brakes.
Related question for everyone. I had the brake fluid flushed with racing fluid in both the CR and 911 this week. The 911 brakes feel firm, but the CR brakes feel mushy, with more pedal travel than before. The shop told me that the CR brakes will feel firmer after the brake fluid heats up and expands, and that it's desirable to leave some room for that expansion, but they can firm it up now if I prefer (at no extra cost). Have you guys had a similar experience? Should I ask them to firm it up now? I don't want to spend the weekend at the track with mushy brakes.
only 'smart' parts there is ABS and it does not adjust line pressures. if there is a PIWIS setting for that - it would be interesting to find out.
'mushy' brakes after flush probably mean they got air in, need to flush again and cycle ABS. pedal travels more only if there is some space in the hydraulic system to collapse - usually means air.
ps. if you have extra $400 you can try to put GT3 master brake cylinder into CR. you may like it.
Last edited by utkinpol; 05-31-2012 at 07:50 AM.
#57
05-31-2012, 12:00 PM
only way i know to change brake bias in the 997 car is to use different pads.
only 'smart' parts there is ABS and it does not adjust line pressures. if there is a PIWIS setting for that - it would be interesting to find out.
'mushy' brakes after flush probably mean they got air in, need to flush again and cycle ABS. pedal travels more only if there is some space in the hydraulic system to collapse - usually means air.
only 'smart' parts there is ABS and it does not adjust line pressures. if there is a PIWIS setting for that - it would be interesting to find out.
'mushy' brakes after flush probably mean they got air in, need to flush again and cycle ABS. pedal travels more only if there is some space in the hydraulic system to collapse - usually means air.
1- take their offer of 'no cost to u' firm-up so they can re-do the brake flush.. correctly.
2- find out how they accomplished 15% increase in the rear brakes without changing the pads
i m also curious to know which shop this is..
#58
05-31-2012, 02:38 PM
Looks like you guys were right - about the BS part. I talked with the shop owner today and he said there's no way to change the brake bias in a 997 without changing the brakes themselves (pads, discs, etc.). The guy I had been talking with is a service rep, not a technician, and apparently is still "learning the terminology" in the words of the owner. I told the owner that he might want to have a word with the service guy about not talking nonsense with customers, since that can result in loss of confidence and hurt the business, and he agreed. Awkward situation. 
Also, the owner agreed that my spongy brake pedal is likely due to air in the system, which they'll take care of tomorrow. I don't like having to make these repeated trips, but fortunately the shop is close by, and I do want to get this right.
Thanks for all the input! Impressive knowledge base at 6speed.
Also, the owner agreed that my spongy brake pedal is likely due to air in the system, which they'll take care of tomorrow. I don't like having to make these repeated trips, but fortunately the shop is close by, and I do want to get this right.
Thanks for all the input! Impressive knowledge base at 6speed.
#59
05-31-2012, 03:10 PM
in addition to a season of autox's, i have 50+ DE days on 8 different tracks (3 @ summit, 2 NJMP, VIR, WG, MO). aside from increased maintenance $ and front end road rash, the only real issue so far was broken shift cable.
as long as you dont mind a little wear and tear on your car (some call it patina!) and the increased cost to operate, it will be the funnest thing you can do in your car.
as long as you dont mind a little wear and tear on your car (some call it patina!) and the increased cost to operate, it will be the funnest thing you can do in your car.
Some questions for guys with a lot of 997 track experience:
- Do you turn PSM off?
sometimes but never in the rain. i'm not trying to set any records to i tend so leave it on. and like northvan said, it never really turns all the way off anyway.
- What is your experience with understeer and oversteer characteristics of the car?
carrera's (and most cars in america, i believe) tend to understeer from factory. i guess theyd rather the masses crash head on into something rather than looping their car on public roads. only so much of this can be dialed out with the stock suspension set up but it can def be made a little better with a good alignment.
- Have you ever spun? Any crashes?
never spun or crashed, but had a couple off's (at VIR and summit point). i've seen spins, leaking fluids, and parts flying, both in front and behind me and have been at track when flips have occurred. still, all things considered, statistically you prob have a better chance of crashing/getting hit while on the road.
- Have you increased the front or rear negative cambers?
before i switched to coilovers, i got the best alignment i could with the stock set up. take it to a reputable race shop, they will know what to do.
- What mods do you consider essential for the track?
first mod is to "tighten the nut behind the steering wheel" - do some DE's, take classes, get some coaching, and keep the car stock while learning. after you get more skill and confidence in what youre doing/start pushing limits, then go down the slippery slope of mods.
- Do you change the tire pressures relative to the standard cold pressures?
yes. all tires have a "sweet spot" pressure where they are the grippiest. and of course they all have a point where they get too hot/too slippery. too cold is better than too hot in my experience but in any event, you want to find the goldilocks zone - just right. your best bet is to find someone at the track with similar car and tires and ask what pressures they start out at. also, i would run same pressure all the way around.
- Do you routinely heel/toe? Have you modified the pedals to make it easier?
yes, and i learned on stock pedals. aftermarkets will help but not necessary (and i have HORRIBLE feet too).
- Do you turn PSM off?
sometimes but never in the rain. i'm not trying to set any records to i tend so leave it on. and like northvan said, it never really turns all the way off anyway.
- What is your experience with understeer and oversteer characteristics of the car?
carrera's (and most cars in america, i believe) tend to understeer from factory. i guess theyd rather the masses crash head on into something rather than looping their car on public roads. only so much of this can be dialed out with the stock suspension set up but it can def be made a little better with a good alignment.
- Have you ever spun? Any crashes?
never spun or crashed, but had a couple off's (at VIR and summit point). i've seen spins, leaking fluids, and parts flying, both in front and behind me and have been at track when flips have occurred. still, all things considered, statistically you prob have a better chance of crashing/getting hit while on the road.
- Have you increased the front or rear negative cambers?
before i switched to coilovers, i got the best alignment i could with the stock set up. take it to a reputable race shop, they will know what to do.
- What mods do you consider essential for the track?
first mod is to "tighten the nut behind the steering wheel" - do some DE's, take classes, get some coaching, and keep the car stock while learning. after you get more skill and confidence in what youre doing/start pushing limits, then go down the slippery slope of mods.
- Do you change the tire pressures relative to the standard cold pressures?
yes. all tires have a "sweet spot" pressure where they are the grippiest. and of course they all have a point where they get too hot/too slippery. too cold is better than too hot in my experience but in any event, you want to find the goldilocks zone - just right. your best bet is to find someone at the track with similar car and tires and ask what pressures they start out at. also, i would run same pressure all the way around.
- Do you routinely heel/toe? Have you modified the pedals to make it easier?
yes, and i learned on stock pedals. aftermarkets will help but not necessary (and i have HORRIBLE feet too).
Some follow-up questions for you, and anyone else with relevant experience:
- Do you typically get track insurance? My Hartford policy seems to cover DEs.
i used to rely on USAA until they added a specific rider that prohibited "any activity on a track", whereas before they just mentioned "racing" and "timed events". i hear other providers have closed this loophole as well. if i were you, i'd call them before your event, tell them exactly what youre going to do, where and with whom, and get it on record that they will cover you. i now use lockton affinity.
- When have you typically encountered oversteer? I haven't gotten my 997 on the track yet (hopefully in about a week, hence all these questions), but I've found understeer much more common when autocrossing it.
as stated above, i have upgraded suspension but prior to that, the only place i could induce oversteer was mid-corner throttle lift.
- Relative to the official cold pressures (37/44 on my car), what pressures do you try to maintain on the track?
see comment above. all tires are different. all have a different sweet spot (altho i believe none perform well over 40psi). i use toyo 888's and have found that 35 hot is good. and considering i gain as much as 10psi in a 30min session, i start at 25. i hear others with hoosiers only gain 6-8. my street tires used to gain about 4-6. your best bet is to ask someone with similar car/tires.
- Do you typically get track insurance? My Hartford policy seems to cover DEs.
i used to rely on USAA until they added a specific rider that prohibited "any activity on a track", whereas before they just mentioned "racing" and "timed events". i hear other providers have closed this loophole as well. if i were you, i'd call them before your event, tell them exactly what youre going to do, where and with whom, and get it on record that they will cover you. i now use lockton affinity.
- When have you typically encountered oversteer? I haven't gotten my 997 on the track yet (hopefully in about a week, hence all these questions), but I've found understeer much more common when autocrossing it.
as stated above, i have upgraded suspension but prior to that, the only place i could induce oversteer was mid-corner throttle lift.
- Relative to the official cold pressures (37/44 on my car), what pressures do you try to maintain on the track?
see comment above. all tires are different. all have a different sweet spot (altho i believe none perform well over 40psi). i use toyo 888's and have found that 35 hot is good. and considering i gain as much as 10psi in a 30min session, i start at 25. i hear others with hoosiers only gain 6-8. my street tires used to gain about 4-6. your best bet is to ask someone with similar car/tires.
#60
06-07-2012, 06:39 AM
I recently completed three track days, two with the CR and one with the 911 (five track days total so far, with many more to come this season). I also just re-read this thread from the beginning. Some thoughts and observations:
- To give some context, I'm driving at about 8/10ths and am placed in the 'advanced beginner' blue group. My only experience of what these cars can do beyond 8/10ths is riding with a couple of instructors, which was thriling.
- I think the 911 behaves very well on the track, and I think I like it a bit more than the CR. I find the handling of both cars to be very predictable and controllable.
- The brake feel of the 911 is much better than the CR, even after bleeding the brakes of the CR. I've heard the GT3 master cylinder will help, but only modestly.
- My heel/toeing is tolerable, but still needs a lot of work. I may get modified pedals, but I'm continuing to practice with the stock pedals for now. One instructor I rode with was doing the h/t so fast and perfectly that it was truly a thing of beauty. Honestly, seemed just as fast as the current PDK.
- Due to heating, I'm increasing tire pressures by about 4 to 8 psi during each session, and really need to work on getting the pressures right. Especially with the 911, where the official cold pressures are 37/44; I dropped the rear pressures to 38.5 before one session and they still were up to 47 at the end of the session.
- I'll keep an eye on tire wear and may have to look into cambers, alignment, etc. if the tire wear is too uneven. Both cars currently understeer, though the understeer goes away and transitions to a bit of oversteer if I have enough throttle out of turns. In most turns, I also found that I can use the throttle to induce oversteer at will, thereby helping to rotate the car for exits, but of course this has to be done carefully to avoid a spin, and a couple times I had to countersteer and recover to do that.
- My speeds are getting high enough that I'll probably look into improving safety, maybe starting with a HANS device. I also need to think about harnesses.
- The seats in the CR (sport seats, not the carbon fiber buckets) are pretty good on the track, and hold me in well. The seats I have in the 911 don't hold me in place nearly as well (my instructor had the same comment, and was bracing himself with the door handle and footwell).
- Yesterday, I let two tires go about 9" off into the grass, figuring it wouldn't be a big deal. When I turned to get those tires back on the track, as soon as the front tire got back on I spun. My instructor told me that the correct action would have been to keep the tires off until my speed was low and then get back on, and that he could have stopped me from trying to steer back on, but he wanted me see what would happen, since it wasn't a fast corner. No damage, though the car behind had to go around me. I was a bit shaken, and frankly embarrassed, but my instructor still scored me 5/5 in all categories and told to just learn the lesson and move on. And I should also note that I wouldn't have been in a situation where I had to consider letting two wheels off if I hadn't made the dumbass move of trying to leave the guy behind me, who I just passed, in the dust (http://www.momentumporsche.com/red-mist.htm).
- I'm quickly learning that the faster you go (or want to go), the less margin for error you have. Smoothness and accuracy become paramount. Lines, braking points and pressures, and throttle application need to be brought closer and closer to perfection, so I can see that I have much to learn and practice.
- Despite my (avoidable!) spin, I strongly encourage everyone who's never tracked to do so, or at least do some autocrosses. It's the only way you can get a feel for what your car can (and can't do) relatively safely. Trying to drive at 7/10ths or higher on public roads is dangerous. And IMO, there's not much point in having a sports car if you're not going to learn to drive it and at least occasionally drive it the way it was designed to be driven.
- To give some context, I'm driving at about 8/10ths and am placed in the 'advanced beginner' blue group. My only experience of what these cars can do beyond 8/10ths is riding with a couple of instructors, which was thriling.
- I think the 911 behaves very well on the track, and I think I like it a bit more than the CR. I find the handling of both cars to be very predictable and controllable.
- The brake feel of the 911 is much better than the CR, even after bleeding the brakes of the CR. I've heard the GT3 master cylinder will help, but only modestly.
- My heel/toeing is tolerable, but still needs a lot of work. I may get modified pedals, but I'm continuing to practice with the stock pedals for now. One instructor I rode with was doing the h/t so fast and perfectly that it was truly a thing of beauty. Honestly, seemed just as fast as the current PDK.
- Due to heating, I'm increasing tire pressures by about 4 to 8 psi during each session, and really need to work on getting the pressures right. Especially with the 911, where the official cold pressures are 37/44; I dropped the rear pressures to 38.5 before one session and they still were up to 47 at the end of the session.
- I'll keep an eye on tire wear and may have to look into cambers, alignment, etc. if the tire wear is too uneven. Both cars currently understeer, though the understeer goes away and transitions to a bit of oversteer if I have enough throttle out of turns. In most turns, I also found that I can use the throttle to induce oversteer at will, thereby helping to rotate the car for exits, but of course this has to be done carefully to avoid a spin, and a couple times I had to countersteer and recover to do that.
- My speeds are getting high enough that I'll probably look into improving safety, maybe starting with a HANS device. I also need to think about harnesses.
- The seats in the CR (sport seats, not the carbon fiber buckets) are pretty good on the track, and hold me in well. The seats I have in the 911 don't hold me in place nearly as well (my instructor had the same comment, and was bracing himself with the door handle and footwell).
- Yesterday, I let two tires go about 9" off into the grass, figuring it wouldn't be a big deal. When I turned to get those tires back on the track, as soon as the front tire got back on I spun. My instructor told me that the correct action would have been to keep the tires off until my speed was low and then get back on, and that he could have stopped me from trying to steer back on, but he wanted me see what would happen, since it wasn't a fast corner. No damage, though the car behind had to go around me. I was a bit shaken, and frankly embarrassed
, but my instructor still scored me 5/5 in all categories and told to just learn the lesson and move on. And I should also note that I wouldn't have been in a situation where I had to consider letting two wheels off if I hadn't made the dumbass move of trying to leave the guy behind me, who I just passed, in the dust (http://www.momentumporsche.com/red-mist.htm).- I'm quickly learning that the faster you go (or want to go), the less margin for error you have. Smoothness and accuracy become paramount. Lines, braking points and pressures, and throttle application need to be brought closer and closer to perfection, so I can see that I have much to learn and practice.
- Despite my (avoidable!) spin, I strongly encourage everyone who's never tracked to do so, or at least do some autocrosses. It's the only way you can get a feel for what your car can (and can't do) relatively safely. Trying to drive at 7/10ths or higher on public roads is dangerous. And IMO, there's not much point in having a sports car if you're not going to learn to drive it and at least occasionally drive it the way it was designed to be driven.
Last edited by Manifold; 06-07-2012 at 06:53 AM.