Originally Posted by lacrosse

Manifold thanks for that post. Have to say I was on the fence about doing a track day but you may have pushed me over the edge.

Thanks!

Originally Posted by NorthVan

Sounds like another one is bitten by the track bug. Not long and you will be over 50 days too

For heel toe (rev matching) try some Rennline pedals with extension (I only have the toe), makes it a lot easier.

Good luck and enjoy the track time.

Originally Posted by Manifold

I definitely encourage you to try it at least once, and don't let my spin discourage you. Driving at 6/10 or 7/10 is fast enough to be tons of fun, while still quite safe. And autocross is cool because you can turn off PSM and drive at 9/10 safely. Your local PCA regions are a great way to get involved in this stuff and, as others have noted, there's a nice social aspect to it.

Originally Posted by Manifold

- I think the 911 behaves very well on the track, and I think I like it a bit more than the CR. I find the handling of both cars to be very predictable and controllable.

i'm surprised to hear that. most folks i know that own/have driven both as stock on the track prefer the cayman (due to inherent mid-eng design and set up, etc).

- The brake feel of the 911 is much better than the CR, even after bleeding the brakes of the CR. I've heard the GT3 master cylinder will help, but only modestly.

i've heard this as well.

- My heel/toeing is tolerable, but still needs a lot of work. I may get modified pedals, but I'm continuing to practice with the stock pedals for now. One instructor I rode with was doing the h/t so fast and perfectly that it was truly a thing of beauty. Honestly, seemed just as fast as the current PDK.

practice on the street when slowing for corners or coming to a light. definitely not a substitute for track setting/pedal height orientation but it will def get your MIND in tune with doing it naturally and will make you more comfortable with doing something with that right foot other than just braking.

- My speeds are getting high enough that I'll probably look into improving safety, maybe starting with a HANS device. I also need to think about harnesses.

obviously i dont know every product out there, but i believe HANS needs harnesses and cannot be used without them? in any case, safety is a good idea and dont go half-assed - get the good stuff and invest in good seats and roll bar, not harness bar.

- Yesterday, I let two tires go about 9" off into the grass, figuring it wouldn't be a big deal. When I turned to get those tires back on the track, as soon as the front tire got back on I spun. My instructor told me that the correct action would have been to keep the tires off until my speed was low and then get back on, and that he could have stopped me from trying to steer back on, but he wanted me see what would happen, since it wasn't a fast corner. No damage, though the car behind had to go around me. I was a bit shaken, and frankly embarrassed , but my instructor still scored me 5/5 in all categories and told to just learn the lesson and move on. And I should also note that I wouldn't have been in a situation where I had to consider letting two wheels off if I hadn't made the dumbass move of trying to leave the guy behind me, who I just passed, in the dust (http://www.momentumporsche.com/red-mist.htm).

yep, from street driving, it's..."intuitive"?...to try to get back on the road quickly. i've been off once at VIR (T1) and for a split second i almost yanked wheel toward pavement but thank goodness subconscience won out and i kept wheels straight and slowed. no damage other than pride.

- I'm quickly learning that the faster you go (or want to go), the less margin for error you have. Smoothness and accuracy become paramount. Lines, braking points and pressures, and throttle application need to be brought closer and closer to perfection, so I can see that I have much to learn and practice.

yep. i have noticed tho that with increasing speed (and mods?), there is sometimes more need to, not "saw" the steering wheel really, but more like "quickly fine tune it" (like when you catch/prevent oversteer, etc) thru turns. the key is keeping the CAR smooth.

Originally Posted by Manifold

I hope to be at Watkins Glen for a DE at the end of this month, with the wife driving too. Everyone tells me that it's a great track.

Originally Posted by Manifold

I recently completed three track days, two with the CR and one with the 911 (five track days total so far, with many more to come this season). I also just re-read this thread from the beginning. Some thoughts and observations:

- To give some context, I'm driving at about 8/10ths and am placed in the 'advanced beginner' blue group. My only experience of what these cars can do beyond 8/10ths is riding with a couple of instructors, which was thriling.

- I think the 911 behaves very well on the track, and I think I like it a bit more than the CR. I find the handling of both cars to be very predictable and controllable.

- The brake feel of the 911 is much better than the CR, even after bleeding the brakes of the CR. I've heard the GT3 master cylinder will help, but only modestly.

- My heel/toeing is tolerable, but still needs a lot of work. I may get modified pedals, but I'm continuing to practice with the stock pedals for now. One instructor I rode with was doing the h/t so fast and perfectly that it was truly a thing of beauty. Honestly, seemed just as fast as the current PDK.

- Due to heating, I'm increasing tire pressures by about 4 to 8 psi during each session, and really need to work on getting the pressures right. Especially with the 911, where the official cold pressures are 37/44; I dropped the rear pressures to 38.5 before one session and they still were up to 47 at the end of the session.

- I'll keep an eye on tire wear and may have to look into cambers, alignment, etc. if the tire wear is too uneven. Both cars currently understeer, though the understeer goes away and transitions to a bit of oversteer if I have enough throttle out of turns. In most turns, I also found that I can use the throttle to induce oversteer at will, thereby helping to rotate the car for exits, but of course this has to be done carefully to avoid a spin, and a couple times I had to countersteer and recover to do that.

- My speeds are getting high enough that I'll probably look into improving safety, maybe starting with a HANS device. I also need to think about harnesses.

- The seats in the CR (sport seats, not the carbon fiber buckets) are pretty good on the track, and hold me in well. The seats I have in the 911 don't hold me in place nearly as well (my instructor had the same comment, and was bracing himself with the door handle and footwell).

- Yesterday, I let two tires go about 9" off into the grass, figuring it wouldn't be a big deal. When I turned to get those tires back on the track, as soon as the front tire got back on I spun. My instructor told me that the correct action would have been to keep the tires off until my speed was low and then get back on, and that he could have stopped me from trying to steer back on, but he wanted me see what would happen, since it wasn't a fast corner. No damage, though the car behind had to go around me. I was a bit shaken, and frankly embarrassed , but my instructor still scored me 5/5 in all categories and told to just learn the lesson and move on. And I should also note that I wouldn't have been in a situation where I had to consider letting two wheels off if I hadn't made the dumbass move of trying to leave the guy behind me, who I just passed, in the dust (http://www.momentumporsche.com/red-mist.htm).

- I'm quickly learning that the faster you go (or want to go), the less margin for error you have. Smoothness and accuracy become paramount. Lines, braking points and pressures, and throttle application need to be brought closer and closer to perfection, so I can see that I have much to learn and practice.

- Despite my (avoidable!) spin, I strongly encourage everyone who's never tracked to do so, or at least do some autocrosses. It's the only way you can get a feel for what your car can (and can't do) relatively safely. Trying to drive at 7/10ths or higher on public roads is dangerous. And IMO, there's not much point in having a sports car if you're not going to learn to drive it and at least occasionally drive it the way it was designed to be driven.

Originally Posted by Manifold

- Due to heating, I'm increasing tire pressures by about 4 to 8 psi during each session, and really need to work on getting the pressures right. Especially with the 911, where the official cold pressures are 37/44; I dropped the rear pressures to 38.5 before one session and they still were up to 47 at the end of the session.

Originally Posted by utkinpol

some crappy instructors suggest to boost pressure in street tires up to 50psi - it is BAD. do not do it.

Originally Posted by NorthVan

Sounds like another one is bitten by the track bug. Not long and you will be over 50 days too

For heel toe (rev matching) try some Rennline pedals with extension (I only have the toe), makes it a lot easier.

Good luck and enjoy the track time.

Originally Posted by spiffyjiff

are you going with potomac chapter on 22nd - 24th? if so, i'll be there as well.

Originally Posted by jurnes

My comments:

-Tire pressure, especially rears: Start at about 30-32 lbs with the goal of not letting the tires get above 40 lbs during the session.

This fits what other people are recommending, but I'm still baffled about why the official cold rear pressure is 44.

I think your over-steer you are experiencing is due to the rear tires getting "greasy".

You may be right, and my instructor warned that this may happen after 4 or 5 laps. I was also getting more aggressive on getting on the power coming out of tighter turns, so that might have contributed.

-Suspension setup: You will get to a point where you will want between 2-3 degrees negative front camber, and about .5 degrees less for the rear. The higher % numbers will give the best cornering performance, at the expense of straight-line braking and turn in feel. You will be paying for two piece front lower control arms to get these numbers. (many threads on this subject.)

Will need to check into this.

-Understeer: A car with understeer characteristics is generally faster, and certainly safer on track, especially for a less experienced driver.

Agreed. I'd rather control understeer with the throttle and some steering input, rather than the more challenging and risky task of controlling oversteer.

Keep tracking your car and you will find that lower lap times seem to come in plateau's: All of a sudden you will see a consistent drop in lap times, then after a period, another drop...

I've experienced this exact phenomenon with guitar, and I suspect the same occurs with development of all or most combined physical/mental skills. There are also the frustating times when performance worsens for a while, due to reduced concentration or just getting rusty from taking too much time off.

Originally Posted by utkinpol

on any tires try to keep hot pressures in area between 34 to 36 psi. keep rear axle 2psi max higher than fronts. 34f/36r is good.
you will feel how tire changes its grip when it approaches 40psi and goes over it.

adjust cold pressures as needed to have hot pressures where they should be.

some crappy instructors suggest to boost pressure in street tires up to 50psi - it is BAD. do not do it.

Originally Posted by crazycarlitos

yup.. i see a GT3 in your future Manifold

BTW my vote is to keep the pedal original.. and practice, practice, and more practice.

Originally Posted by Manifold

Same question about why the recommended cold rear pressures are 44. Does the tire width and extra weight at the rear not factor in?