What's wrong with Vette's??
#31
02-03-2012 | 05:27 AM
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+1.
However - what if engineering allowed the cars to apply power to ground more efficiently, instead of spinning out?
I mean, it takes some serious attention, education, and discipline to handle a high horsepower RWD car.
BUT - let's look at a few other cars that have over 500HP, and have no problem being handled at the limit (in either a straight line or around corners):
Porsche Turbo, GT2
Nissan GT-R
Ferrari (any recent model - 430S, 458, etc...)
Audi R8 V10
Lamborghini Gallardo, Aventador
etc...
Obviously, this list includes some serious engineering, but my point is (and I think loosely encompassed by our Greek friend) all of that power is useless, unless it can be properly applied to the ground.
I had an opportunity to track my friend's C5Z06 around a track, and I found that while the car made great power, it took a VERY long time to be able to apply full throttle (when compared to other cars). Not only did I have to wait and apply very little throttle for a while, but if modulated incorrectly, I found an instant 'on' switch for the torque on corner exit (typically lower speed corners, in 2nd gear).
My 2 Viper experiences? Forget it. I was one of those typical Viper drivers back in the mid-90's. Rented one in Vegas in '95, didn't get one block away from the lot, and spun out turning left at the first light - ended up facing oncoming traffic. Very embarrassing. I tried it again about 10 years later - on track. I spun out in turn one on my first lap of really trying to push the car (within, what I thought was, my limits). I eventually learned to calm my responses, and found the Viper is an extremely capable car, but my hands were not.
I think the outgoing C6Z06 is one of the best engineered cars in the world. It has straight line speed, can corner very well (I have not driven one with the new tire option yet), is not too jarring for the daily commute, and still has a decent setup of technology. The only problem I see is the quality of the interior (which Chevy has announced it will attempt to address in its successor).
To reiterate my point - the issue that we see in the video, I feel, is the lack of driver ability combined with the lack of engineering. If power can be applied more efficiently to the ground, these things would happen less.
However - what if engineering allowed the cars to apply power to ground more efficiently, instead of spinning out?
I mean, it takes some serious attention, education, and discipline to handle a high horsepower RWD car.
BUT - let's look at a few other cars that have over 500HP, and have no problem being handled at the limit (in either a straight line or around corners):
Porsche Turbo, GT2
Nissan GT-R
Ferrari (any recent model - 430S, 458, etc...)
Audi R8 V10
Lamborghini Gallardo, Aventador
etc...
Obviously, this list includes some serious engineering, but my point is (and I think loosely encompassed by our Greek friend) all of that power is useless, unless it can be properly applied to the ground.
I had an opportunity to track my friend's C5Z06 around a track, and I found that while the car made great power, it took a VERY long time to be able to apply full throttle (when compared to other cars). Not only did I have to wait and apply very little throttle for a while, but if modulated incorrectly, I found an instant 'on' switch for the torque on corner exit (typically lower speed corners, in 2nd gear).
My 2 Viper experiences? Forget it. I was one of those typical Viper drivers back in the mid-90's. Rented one in Vegas in '95, didn't get one block away from the lot, and spun out turning left at the first light - ended up facing oncoming traffic. Very embarrassing. I tried it again about 10 years later - on track. I spun out in turn one on my first lap of really trying to push the car (within, what I thought was, my limits). I eventually learned to calm my responses, and found the Viper is an extremely capable car, but my hands were not.
I think the outgoing C6Z06 is one of the best engineered cars in the world. It has straight line speed, can corner very well (I have not driven one with the new tire option yet), is not too jarring for the daily commute, and still has a decent setup of technology. The only problem I see is the quality of the interior (which Chevy has announced it will attempt to address in its successor).
To reiterate my point - the issue that we see in the video, I feel, is the lack of driver ability combined with the lack of engineering. If power can be applied more efficiently to the ground, these things would happen less.
#32
02-03-2012 | 08:02 AM
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^^ your list above is almost all AWD cars. 
The Ferrari's have no torque (and lets face it, who's driving a 458 hard?). The GT2 will bite your ***, just like a Z06.
It's the driver, really, but...
The tires have sucked on the Z's. Likewise, the rear shock dampening in '06 created rough-road bump steer. The car is still living that brief period of time down.
If buying new, an upgrade to the Z07 package (Pilot Sports and dual mode mag-shocks) should keep all but the completely novice/foolish out of the weeds. (provided said novice simply leaves the traction/stability controls on).
The Ferrari's have no torque (and lets face it, who's driving a 458 hard?). The GT2 will bite your ***, just like a Z06.
It's the driver, really, but...
The tires have sucked on the Z's. Likewise, the rear shock dampening in '06 created rough-road bump steer. The car is still living that brief period of time down.
If buying new, an upgrade to the Z07 package (Pilot Sports and dual mode mag-shocks) should keep all but the completely novice/foolish out of the weeds. (provided said novice simply leaves the traction/stability controls on).
#33
02-03-2012 | 08:46 AM
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I agree with jaspergtr
Some people think that the more power they buy the better, but actually the outcome can be different
take a look at this for example
http://www.fastestlaps.com/compariso...arrera_4s.html
as expected the C6 will demolish 4s on a drag race, being more powerfull and lighter,
however driven on the track its actually slower and this cannot change by any driver since both are tested by experts. Imagine the 996tt comparing a C6 on a wet track...
Some people think that the more power they buy the better, but actually the outcome can be different
take a look at this for example
http://www.fastestlaps.com/compariso...arrera_4s.html
as expected the C6 will demolish 4s on a drag race, being more powerfull and lighter,
however driven on the track its actually slower and this cannot change by any driver since both are tested by experts. Imagine the 996tt comparing a C6 on a wet track...
#34
02-03-2012 | 12:35 PM
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mikegr you just seem very biased... first of all if you compare similar priced cars it would be 4S vs. Z06 and in that case if you look at lap times at the ring (widely held as the best track to compare cars at least as manufacturers seem to think - other tracks can be better for one car or another depending on layout so its pretty arbitrary)... it's not close. The Z06 is comparable to the gt2 in terms of speed. In terms of refinement/interior no battle, Porsche is much better... and you pay a premium for that just like everything in life (and I'm talking about upfront cost, maintenance, etc.)
#35
02-03-2012 | 01:42 PM
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It is obvious that American car makers are quite interested in Ring and they have achieved great times. But tight and smaller tracks are interesting also. Notice that on Vairano Handling Course for example the record is achieved by a Gallardo lp 570 the only one under 1.14" better even than lp 670.
Z06 is a much upgraded Vette but watch this: It costs at least twice the standard Corvette for the 70hp extra power, so it is obvious that quality has a cost, if it had a luxurious interior, sophisticated tranny like PDK and more, it would cost the same as a Porsche.
Also when compare car prices must compare the prices on each country. A Porsche seems expensive is US and if i was living there i would probably get a Vette instead of BMW or a Porsche. But Viper is expensive in Europe too at 150k$+ (price closing to a 997TT...)
Z06 is a much upgraded Vette but watch this: It costs at least twice the standard Corvette for the 70hp extra power, so it is obvious that quality has a cost, if it had a luxurious interior, sophisticated tranny like PDK and more, it would cost the same as a Porsche.
Also when compare car prices must compare the prices on each country. A Porsche seems expensive is US and if i was living there i would probably get a Vette instead of BMW or a Porsche. But Viper is expensive in Europe too at 150k$+ (price closing to a 997TT...)
#36
02-03-2012 | 02:03 PM
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It is obvious that American car makers are quite interested in Ring and they have achieved great times. But tight and smaller tracks are interesting also. Notice that on Vairano Handling Course for example the record is achieved by a Gallardo lp 570 the only one under 1.14" better even than lp 670.
Z06 is a much upgraded Vette but watch this: It costs at least twice the standard Corvette for the 70hp extra power, so it is obvious that quality has a cost, if it had a luxurious interior, sophisticated tranny like PDK and more, it would cost the same as a Porsche.
Also when compare car prices must compare the prices on each country. A Porsche seems expensive is US and if i was living there i would probably get a Vette instead of BMW or a Porsche. But Viper is expensive in Europe too at 150k$+ (price closing to a 997TT...)
Z06 is a much upgraded Vette but watch this: It costs at least twice the standard Corvette for the 70hp extra power, so it is obvious that quality has a cost, if it had a luxurious interior, sophisticated tranny like PDK and more, it would cost the same as a Porsche.
Also when compare car prices must compare the prices on each country. A Porsche seems expensive is US and if i was living there i would probably get a Vette instead of BMW or a Porsche. But Viper is expensive in Europe too at 150k$+ (price closing to a 997TT...)
PDK isn't magic.. many people (myself included) do prefer a manual transmission in their 'sports' cars. It might save a tenth or two in straight line speed contests, but that 'disadvantage' can be overcome with horsepower in most cases
Your point is valid about in-country cost. That said, Porsche, in the USA, has the highest net margin of any car company.
(psssst....that means they are over-priced)
#38
02-04-2012 | 10:20 AM
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+1.
However - what if engineering allowed the cars to apply power to ground more efficiently, instead of spinning out?
I mean, it takes some serious attention, education, and discipline to handle a high horsepower RWD car.
BUT - let's look at a few other cars that have over 500HP, and have no problem being handled at the limit (in either a straight line or around corners):
Porsche Turbo, GT2
Nissan GT-R
Ferrari (any recent model - 430S, 458, etc...)
Audi R8 V10
Lamborghini Gallardo, Aventador
etc...
Obviously, this list includes some serious engineering, but my point is (and I think loosely encompassed by our Greek friend) all of that power is useless, unless it can be properly applied to the ground.
I had an opportunity to track my friend's C5Z06 around a track, and I found that while the car made great power, it took a VERY long time to be able to apply full throttle (when compared to other cars). Not only did I have to wait and apply very little throttle for a while, but if modulated incorrectly, I found an instant 'on' switch for the torque on corner exit (typically lower speed corners, in 2nd gear).
My 2 Viper experiences? Forget it. I was one of those typical Viper drivers back in the mid-90's. Rented one in Vegas in '95, didn't get one block away from the lot, and spun out turning left at the first light - ended up facing oncoming traffic. Very embarrassing. I tried it again about 10 years later - on track. I spun out in turn one on my first lap of really trying to push the car (within, what I thought was, my limits). I eventually learned to calm my responses, and found the Viper is an extremely capable car, but my hands were not.
I think the outgoing C6Z06 is one of the best engineered cars in the world. It has straight line speed, can corner very well (I have not driven one with the new tire option yet), is not too jarring for the daily commute, and still has a decent setup of technology. The only problem I see is the quality of the interior (which Chevy has announced it will attempt to address in its successor).
To reiterate my point - the issue that we see in the video, I feel, is the lack of driver ability combined with the lack of engineering. If power can be applied more efficiently to the ground, these things would happen less.
However - what if engineering allowed the cars to apply power to ground more efficiently, instead of spinning out?
I mean, it takes some serious attention, education, and discipline to handle a high horsepower RWD car.
BUT - let's look at a few other cars that have over 500HP, and have no problem being handled at the limit (in either a straight line or around corners):
Porsche Turbo, GT2
Nissan GT-R
Ferrari (any recent model - 430S, 458, etc...)
Audi R8 V10
Lamborghini Gallardo, Aventador
etc...
Obviously, this list includes some serious engineering, but my point is (and I think loosely encompassed by our Greek friend) all of that power is useless, unless it can be properly applied to the ground.
I had an opportunity to track my friend's C5Z06 around a track, and I found that while the car made great power, it took a VERY long time to be able to apply full throttle (when compared to other cars). Not only did I have to wait and apply very little throttle for a while, but if modulated incorrectly, I found an instant 'on' switch for the torque on corner exit (typically lower speed corners, in 2nd gear).
My 2 Viper experiences? Forget it. I was one of those typical Viper drivers back in the mid-90's. Rented one in Vegas in '95, didn't get one block away from the lot, and spun out turning left at the first light - ended up facing oncoming traffic. Very embarrassing. I tried it again about 10 years later - on track. I spun out in turn one on my first lap of really trying to push the car (within, what I thought was, my limits). I eventually learned to calm my responses, and found the Viper is an extremely capable car, but my hands were not.
I think the outgoing C6Z06 is one of the best engineered cars in the world. It has straight line speed, can corner very well (I have not driven one with the new tire option yet), is not too jarring for the daily commute, and still has a decent setup of technology. The only problem I see is the quality of the interior (which Chevy has announced it will attempt to address in its successor).
To reiterate my point - the issue that we see in the video, I feel, is the lack of driver ability combined with the lack of engineering. If power can be applied more efficiently to the ground, these things would happen less.
Again, it is the driver. Most people don't have the experience to drive a 500+hp car.
Torque. Especially low end and mid range. My Z06 (modded) makes as much torque at 3000 rpm as some of those cars make peak. You can't just come out of a corner and mash the throttle unless you want to go spinning around.
I also have a modded GT2 and it is an absolute handful in a straight line or corners.
The cars on your list are awd or have no torque to speak of.
Last edited by AtomicZ; 02-04-2012 at 10:24 AM.
#39
02-04-2012 | 12:11 PM
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I've been tracking a C6 Z06 for about 5 years now and I can't imagine an easier car to drive. You just have to stay within the limits of the car. I've probably seen 5 GT3's go into walls for every Corvette.
With a few mods (brakes, coilovers and a camshaft) you can drive a street car with AC to the track and beat almost all the race cars while driving with stability control on if you choose. Tough to beat the value for lap times per dollar.
With a few mods (brakes, coilovers and a camshaft) you can drive a street car with AC to the track and beat almost all the race cars while driving with stability control on if you choose. Tough to beat the value for lap times per dollar.
#40
02-04-2012 | 12:16 PM
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LOL @ jaspergtr ...lets compare an AWD to a RWD car....let me remind you where KING(C6Z) is on the times sheet
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...eife_lap_times
RWD cars are just harder to drive at their limits and not as forgiving as AWD cars but then again thats what makes them fun
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...eife_lap_times
RWD cars are just harder to drive at their limits and not as forgiving as AWD cars but then again thats what makes them fun
#41
02-04-2012 | 12:46 PM
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It's really easy for a car that powerful to get away from you if you don't respect it... Even a stock c5 has enough power to overwhelm most drivers, add to that the fact that on a performance to dollar note, lots of people can afford to purchase one (especially used), and you're going to have lots of idiots driving them
#42
02-05-2012 | 10:37 AM
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I am not a vette freak but have owned 4. They are very far from a piece of crap. They are the target of many a street, track, and RR across the USA for a very good reason. They do lack in terms of a very high end sports car interior features however that is easily remidied by an upgrade. The aftermarket parts available for C5 and C6's is HUGE and includes every single component within the vette. I never had problems with my cars and would rank my ZR1 in the top 3 nicest and smoothest running cars I have ever owned. Of course, I did the engine and interir (primarily interior on the ZR1).
Some interior pics:
I dont like the "Z06" center console lid either. All alse through the car is very tasteful. 900 WHP and 825 FT# TQ.
Nice touch - designed by me and cut on a CNC.
A shot of my Z06 engine bay.................................
The ZR1 turned out perfect with complete interior upgrade and 630 WHP. The seats in both cars are made by Caravaggio. They also do complete interior upgrades such as wrapping all carpet placement in leather or/or alacantra as well as center consoles, steering wheel, dash, among others.
The accidents are directly related to driver error and the traction control system.
Last edited by Slow911TT68Tip; 02-05-2012 at 10:53 AM.
#44
02-06-2012 | 05:30 AM
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and with everyone wrecking all these vettes its nuts that my insurance is only 1200 a year...
with that being said... I was waiting to run at e-town and watched a vette in front of me lose it and go right into the wall.. blow airbags and everything
#45
02-06-2012 | 07:14 AM
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I am not a vette freak but have owned 4. They are very far from a piece of crap. They are the target of many a street, track, and RR across the USA for a very good reason. They do lack in terms of a very high end sports car interior features however that is easily remidied by an upgrade. The aftermarket parts available for C5 and C6's is HUGE and includes every single component within the vette. I never had problems with my cars and would rank my ZR1 in the top 3 nicest and smoothest running cars I have ever owned. Of course, I did the engine and interir (primarily interior on the ZR1).