First performance-based criticisms of the new Vanquish
#46
06-21-2012, 05:35 PM
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Those look pretty nice Stuart! Do you have a customer car to put them on? Curious to hear the power increase with those headers and 200 cell cats.
Last edited by Racer_X; 06-21-2012 at 05:39 PM.
#47
06-21-2012, 05:46 PM
I have a friend locally, was going to call him a customer but he's not even that, he's our guinea pig for anything DB9. We've done some good dynos for his car - was bang on 450BHP, 464BHP with exhaust/secondaries/filters, so we have a nice baseline for this install!
I'm hoping for a pretty big number. The headers off those V12 cars are horrendous, look like they should be on a tractor... sorry, better watch my words I pissed off all you V12 guys a while back talking crap, better watch my mouth!
#48
06-21-2012, 06:14 PM
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No, you're spot on about the OE manifolds. They look like something from the industrial revolution!
When do you think you might install these on that DB9? Also, how difficult is it to put these on the car? How many hours of shop labor do you reckon? Does it require engine removal?
When do you think you might install these on that DB9? Also, how difficult is it to put these on the car? How many hours of shop labor do you reckon? Does it require engine removal?
#49
06-21-2012, 08:28 PM
No, you're spot on about the OE manifolds. They look like something from the industrial revolution!
When do you think you might install these on that DB9? Also, how difficult is it to put these on the car? How many hours of shop labor do you reckon? Does it require engine removal?
When do you think you might install these on that DB9? Also, how difficult is it to put these on the car? How many hours of shop labor do you reckon? Does it require engine removal?
Getting them on a DB9/DBS is probably a 10+ hour job. The subframe needs to be dropped down to get them in & out, when you do that you should really have an alignment afterwards as well.
V12 Vantage I'm not sure. The V8 you could change headers in probably 3-4 hours I'd say, but I haven't been underneath a V12 yet so I don't know the configuration well enough to say. I should think it'll be closer to the V8 though.
#50
06-22-2012, 11:01 AM
I don't understand the criticism that the VH platform is outdated. Lambo build the Diablo chassis from 1990 until 2010 in the LP670 SV with very few substantial changes and never got the same amount of flak that AM does. And let me tell you, having seen that chassis with its clothes off - same goes for the Gallardo/LP560, I can tell you I'd 10x rather be in a VH platform car for a massive crash. The Lambos are just angle iron....
Obviously they raised the game a lot with the Aventador, but if a chassis is fundamentally well designed like the VH platform is, there is no need to make a major redesign to offer competitive products.
Numbers on a page, BHP, 0-60, whatever don't translate into the real world. I had a modded T5 Volvo that probably had a horrible 0-60, but honestly, once you were rolling and into second gear, it hit 300ft/lbs of torque from 2000RPM and the thing was a rocket. Surprised a lot of people. So I don't buy into the horsepower wars 100%. However.....
As much as I admire Bez for having principles and a vision and sticking to it, I'm starting to wonder if the obsession with NA is going to start to sting. Engine & drivetrain development is such a huge cost for manufacturers, and Aston just doesn't have the resources to do it on a very regular basis like some of the big boys do. I'm not saying this new Vanquish needs to have 700+BHP, or go tit for tat with a 599, but the gap is growing ever wider and at some point it is just going to be too big for a lot of buyers.
If they took the DBS engine with 510BHP, looked at uprating the pistons/rods & cooling system, maybe drop the compression a touch and put a low pressure (4-5psi) forced induction system on it, that thing is making 600-650BHP all day long with massive reliability and it still for the most part retains the characteristics of NA engines which we all love. That kind of boost level is just a bit of a helper, it doesn't fundamentally change the engine and emotional experience like changing to a 4.0L V8 twin turbo would.
Obviously they raised the game a lot with the Aventador, but if a chassis is fundamentally well designed like the VH platform is, there is no need to make a major redesign to offer competitive products.
Numbers on a page, BHP, 0-60, whatever don't translate into the real world. I had a modded T5 Volvo that probably had a horrible 0-60, but honestly, once you were rolling and into second gear, it hit 300ft/lbs of torque from 2000RPM and the thing was a rocket. Surprised a lot of people. So I don't buy into the horsepower wars 100%. However.....
As much as I admire Bez for having principles and a vision and sticking to it, I'm starting to wonder if the obsession with NA is going to start to sting. Engine & drivetrain development is such a huge cost for manufacturers, and Aston just doesn't have the resources to do it on a very regular basis like some of the big boys do. I'm not saying this new Vanquish needs to have 700+BHP, or go tit for tat with a 599, but the gap is growing ever wider and at some point it is just going to be too big for a lot of buyers.
If they took the DBS engine with 510BHP, looked at uprating the pistons/rods & cooling system, maybe drop the compression a touch and put a low pressure (4-5psi) forced induction system on it, that thing is making 600-650BHP all day long with massive reliability and it still for the most part retains the characteristics of NA engines which we all love. That kind of boost level is just a bit of a helper, it doesn't fundamentally change the engine and emotional experience like changing to a 4.0L V8 twin turbo would.
The VH platform is superb, and the new Vanquish's VH is 25 - 30 % stiffer (on top of what was already a hugely stiff and strong structure) and the car is lighter than the DBS. So what if its basics have been around for while as long as those basics are good? It's a fully competitive platform.
Heist said that Bentley is doing all kinds of great new things. Really??? Like what? The new Conti is a whole lot more similar to the old Conti than the Vanquish is like the DBS.
Power... It has more than the DBS, and it's ligher, so it will be faster. Perhaps not the top speed (which, if it's lower, must be due to gearing), but who is really driving around at over 180? No, it isn't as powerful as the F12. Well, expensive though it is, it's nowhere near as expensive as the F12, so why must it have similar hp? As Stuart said, if Aston does want to enter that particular price bracket, supercharge the V12 and there we are. Or perhaps use tech from the One-77's engine. Assuming that forced-induction is less costly, I have absolutely no problem with the idea of a forced-induction Aston. There is plenty of precedent, and done right it could be great. The new Vanquish plus a supercharged Vanquish (S? Vantage?) would make a nice range.
#51
06-22-2012, 11:45 AM
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Rep Power: 119 Power... It has more than the DBS, and it's ligher, so it will be faster. Perhaps not the top speed (which, if it's lower, must be due to gearing), but who is really driving around at over 180? No, it isn't as powerful as the F12. Well, expensive though it is, it's nowhere near as expensive as the F12, so why must it have similar hp?
Another comparison is between the Vanquish and the V12V. I get that some may chose the Vanquish over the V12V for various reasons (style, room, etc.), but the cars are pretty similar and you don't get any better performance for that extra $100k? Doesn't make sense to me.
#52
06-22-2012, 12:19 PM
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Ok, so here is a little teaser info for you guys..as thought by some DBS is history and Vanquish will take its place in the line-up..This new Vanquish is 75% new, from exterior shell is completely carbon fiber (no more plastic), to redesigned interior, to a new eng*** ..hehe keep reading..
The interior to me is...Wow, not going to spoil the details but very nice, touch switchs and screens are also a nice touch..cabin space increased and boot is now larger than a Bentley CGT, you can now fit 2 full golf club bags..
Engine..hehe, no details on here yet I see, well it is a 6.0L V12, but thats all it shares with the DBS V12..everything has been redone, from stronger block/heads/pistons/rods/intake..and yes VVT with knock control!! ..Numbers are tuned for better ride and comfort but enjoyment of performance 565bhp/620nm with a 11:1 compression..Yes the numbers aren't crazy high, but what room would there be for a future Vanquish S between the new Vanquish and One-77
The interior to me is...Wow, not going to spoil the details but very nice, touch switchs and screens are also a nice touch..cabin space increased and boot is now larger than a Bentley CGT, you can now fit 2 full golf club bags..
Engine..hehe, no details on here yet I see, well it is a 6.0L V12, but thats all it shares with the DBS V12..everything has been redone, from stronger block/heads/pistons/rods/intake..and yes VVT with knock control!! ..Numbers are tuned for better ride and comfort but enjoyment of performance 565bhp/620nm with a 11:1 compression..Yes the numbers aren't crazy high, but what room would there be for a future Vanquish S between the new Vanquish and One-77
#53
06-22-2012, 01:10 PM
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I'm glad to hear that so much of the Vanquish is new. It will be interesting to see what effect this has on the performance of the car. Unfortunately, the performance specs we've seen so far (0-60 and top speed) are about the same as those of the outgoing DBS and worse than those of the old Vanquish S.
#54
06-22-2012, 02:55 PM
Okay just finished reading thru this thread... I personally like the new Vanq...it's an attractive car but I agree it looks similar in style with the DB9/DBS to the untrained eye. In fact the more I see Aston's progression the more I think this is how they want it to be, for whatever reason, perhaps the shape and style to be strong cues in brand recognition and association. Could it be that they want all these cars to look the same generally...part of the larger picture to assimilate without question what so ever a shape and syling to the brand - the "modern" Aston Martin - the bold front grille, the side vents both of which are carried on from tradition but modernized - the VH born silhoutte, the genneral shape, curves, broad shoulder hounches, bold styling, high door line to shorter roof line etc...
This said Aston need to up the ante in performance. period. For the price they are asking for the big bad Vanq, my money would go to McLaren's MP4-12C (albeit a disgusting name) or the venerable masterpeice Ferrari 458 Italia. The way I see it, my DB9 is every bit the grand tourer, quite confortable and sporty, and almost there in the performance envelope with sport pack and 6MT and staggeringly beautiful just as well. Where is the need to upgrade, there is nothing revolutionary to want to make you upgrade, yes the Vanq is an evolution but in that price range it should be a revolution, in every sense of the word...and most importantly in performance!
So in conclusion...does "meet the new boss...same as the old boss" apply here gentlemen? Well only time will tell I suppose
This said Aston need to up the ante in performance. period. For the price they are asking for the big bad Vanq, my money would go to McLaren's MP4-12C (albeit a disgusting name) or the venerable masterpeice Ferrari 458 Italia. The way I see it, my DB9 is every bit the grand tourer, quite confortable and sporty, and almost there in the performance envelope with sport pack and 6MT and staggeringly beautiful just as well. Where is the need to upgrade, there is nothing revolutionary to want to make you upgrade, yes the Vanq is an evolution but in that price range it should be a revolution, in every sense of the word...and most importantly in performance!
So in conclusion...does "meet the new boss...same as the old boss" apply here gentlemen? Well only time will tell I suppose
#55
06-22-2012, 03:38 PM
I wonder how much buyer demographics plays into Aston's strategy (never mind the lack of funds to develop an entirely new car). Who is buying the top of the line new cars like DBS/new Vanquish (minus the One-77)? Are they seriously wealthy people with large garages and the means to get the MP4-12C and 458 as well as the Aston? Or are they just 'regular' wealthy folks who are stretching it a bit to get into one of these cars instead of a Vantage or 911?
#56
06-26-2012, 07:26 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=617DXp5seTo
Aston did not do much to upgrade the interior dash displays. No hi-res LCD.
The steering wheel still looks overly thick and a remanent from the old Vanquish.
I know these are niggly things, but important in this segment.
The design looks like a melange of DBS + One 77 but not executed in the cleanest fashion.
I do not know guys, I'm trying to find a compelling reason why one would want this over a current spec DBS (+ a few thousands in tweaks) and I can't seem to find one outside of someone looking for exclusivity or saying they have the best factory model currently available.
Aston did not do much to upgrade the interior dash displays. No hi-res LCD.
The steering wheel still looks overly thick and a remanent from the old Vanquish.
I know these are niggly things, but important in this segment.
The design looks like a melange of DBS + One 77 but not executed in the cleanest fashion.
I do not know guys, I'm trying to find a compelling reason why one would want this over a current spec DBS (+ a few thousands in tweaks) and I can't seem to find one outside of someone looking for exclusivity or saying they have the best factory model currently available.
#57
06-26-2012, 10:12 AM
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The new steering wheel option is the same one used for the One-77..The dash display, well the cars I know of that have LCD displays..have been having updates upon updates for overheating and loss of comms through the CAN Bus, with being a small comp I think they would have to pitch this from another brand..but no brand has really mastered this yet...so I believe this is more of a reliability factor that played a high roll.
The Vanquish is not a complete new remodel like some have said/hoped..but to me, it's a nice refresh. A lot of manufacture do the refresh, and for a small company, not bad
I find(my opinion) a lot of ppl are really critisizing the new look.."no real change"..I'm not really a Porsche fan and I know someone will rant me on this, but a 1999 Porsche 911 and a 2012 Porsche 911 don't have much "cosmetic" changes either so why all the hates for Vanquish..
The performance, well AM has not been known for this..and probably never will any time soon, it's not there main target..
The Vanquish is not a complete new remodel like some have said/hoped..but to me, it's a nice refresh. A lot of manufacture do the refresh, and for a small company, not bad
I find(my opinion) a lot of ppl are really critisizing the new look.."no real change"..I'm not really a Porsche fan and I know someone will rant me on this, but a 1999 Porsche 911 and a 2012 Porsche 911 don't have much "cosmetic" changes either so why all the hates for Vanquish..
The performance, well AM has not been known for this..and probably never will any time soon, it's not there main target..
#58
06-26-2012, 11:02 AM
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Again I'll mention that this "Astons are not known for their performance" notion is a recent, and unfortunate, one. Astons used to be highly competitive. The old Vanquish was one of the fastest cars around over a decade ago. Aston clearly are falling behind now though and are in danger of being regarded as "pretty but not that fast."
#59
06-26-2012, 11:37 AM
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Rep Power: 205 Again I'll mention that this "Astons are not known for their performance" notion is a recent, and unfortunate, one. Astons used to be highly competitive. The old Vanquish was one of the fastest cars around over a decade ago. Aston clearly are falling behind now though and are in danger of being regarded as "pretty but not that fast."
But untill they team up with a brand to supply a new powertrain, this is all that will be used. The V8 as we all know is Jag, but what some don't know is the V12 is a Jag engine also..the V12 has come a long way since Jag's run with it..but funding just isn't there, at least the Vanquish will benefit from the One-77 VVT system..
Being somewhat informed of the inside info/idea's(not much but some), I do see Aston leanring more in the performance department, just they seem to be only working on there current designs..heck One-77 got to 700bhp with the V12 in NA form..so that leaves a 600-650bhp gap that could be filled with a furture Vanquish-S model..
BTW: on a side note, if anyone hasn't heard..V12V Roadster is a go but only to the UK Markets...USA/Canada/Mid East will not get. There will be a limited run of 101 units
#60
06-26-2012, 11:44 AM
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Agree that money is an issue, but I can't help but wonder whether all of the money Aston spent designing the One-77 and/or supporting AMR couldn't have been put to better use improving their "normal" range of cars.