AMG Powered Aston Martins Only Three To Four Years Away
#46
09-20-2013, 06:21 AM
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The truth is Aston just can't afford to go it totally alone in the long term. They are one of very few (probably the only one of their size) high end global manufacturers that aren't owned by one of the big groups. The cost of developing new engines and keeping pace with fast moving emissions legislation is absolutely immense, and the Volvo based electronic architecture is in need of an overhaul, no way can they afford to develop their own and keep pace with ultra fast moving hi-tech world.
AMG / Merc have produced some very bespoke power units for the likes of Zonda to good effect, so why not Aston, who will surely also wish to stamp their own bespoke DNA on any new engine. So I don't think A.M. Will simply slot a current V8 into the next Vantage.
Aston have only just fettled the V12 and have an agreement in place with Ford for their dedicated engine plant in Germany, so as is clearly indicated by the press release I believe a new V8 will be first, but who knows for the long term...
Interesting and exciting times, but I have faith in Aston's ability to take key quality components (like they do from Bilstein, Brembo, Conti etc) and weave them into the VH- platform while retaining that unique Aston Martin DNA.
AMG / Merc have produced some very bespoke power units for the likes of Zonda to good effect, so why not Aston, who will surely also wish to stamp their own bespoke DNA on any new engine. So I don't think A.M. Will simply slot a current V8 into the next Vantage.
Aston have only just fettled the V12 and have an agreement in place with Ford for their dedicated engine plant in Germany, so as is clearly indicated by the press release I believe a new V8 will be first, but who knows for the long term...
Interesting and exciting times, but I have faith in Aston's ability to take key quality components (like they do from Bilstein, Brembo, Conti etc) and weave them into the VH- platform while retaining that unique Aston Martin DNA.
#47
09-20-2013, 02:55 PM
I have mixed feelings on this subject. I feel sad to hear/read that AMG will be taking over production of Aston's motors, however I would be lying if I said I wasn't curious to see what the future holds for Aston Martin as a player in the exotic car market. A V8V now is in the price point of a lot of the P-Cars (turbos, GT3's, etc.) but I think a lot of people rule the AM out as a possible purchase due to worries of reliability and the ability to live with the vehicle on a daily basis. Perhaps AMG's development and production of their motors will give AM a bigger piece of the market and future buyers more reassurance?
#48
09-20-2013, 04:07 PM
I have mixed feelings on this subject. I feel sad to hear/read that AMG will be taking over production of Aston's motors, however I would be lying if I said I wasn't curious to see what the future holds for Aston Martin as a player in the exotic car market. A V8V now is in the price point of a lot of the P-Cars (turbos, GT3's, etc.) but I think a lot of people rule the AM out as a possible purchase due to worries of reliability and the ability to live with the vehicle on a daily basis. Perhaps AMG's development and production of their motors will give AM a bigger piece of the market and future buyers more reassurance?
Traditionally the P cars are in a different position than AM - not better/worse - different. Today the line between GT, luxury and sports cars is so blurred that the only real place to tell a difference is on a track where weight REALLY handicaps a car. Technology is filtering down big time.
I've got mixed feelings about AM capturing a bigger piece of the market as you mentioned. V8V was my first car at this level and sometimes I still miss it but the replacement made more sense for where I'm at in life. I hope AM is always a niche' maker.
#49
09-20-2013, 04:14 PM
Agreed - AM buyers buy their cars to be different. I think you will see more AM's on the road once this partnership begins.
#51
09-22-2013, 11:19 PM
More news .....
It appears that AMG is discontinuing the new 5.5L AMG sooner than expected for a newer 4.0L TT V8 (by essentially mating two of the CLA45AMG 2.0L 4cyl engines together).
If that is in fact true, then the motor will be incredibly fuel efficient. The new engine won't become available for another 2-3 years roughly which coincides with the Aston-AMG partnership timeline.
It seems Aston will use the new 4.0TT for both more power and better fuel efficiency.
http://www.autoblog.com/2013/09/19/m...v8-going-away/
It appears that AMG is discontinuing the new 5.5L AMG sooner than expected for a newer 4.0L TT V8 (by essentially mating two of the CLA45AMG 2.0L 4cyl engines together).
If that is in fact true, then the motor will be incredibly fuel efficient. The new engine won't become available for another 2-3 years roughly which coincides with the Aston-AMG partnership timeline.
It seems Aston will use the new 4.0TT for both more power and better fuel efficiency.
http://www.autoblog.com/2013/09/19/m...v8-going-away/
#52
09-25-2013, 03:34 PM
Appeared to me that your were the one disparaging the V8, hence the real Aston comment. And keep in mind that it was the DBR9 that resulted in Aston's first LeMans win since 1959, not the Vantage.
If the V12 had not been ruled out of use, they'd still be using the DBR9 rather than the Vantage for GT racing. That was simply a spectacular racing car that dominated during its 3-year career, winning several manufacturer's championships and LeMans twice.
If the V12 had not been ruled out of use, they'd still be using the DBR9 rather than the Vantage for GT racing. That was simply a spectacular racing car that dominated during its 3-year career, winning several manufacturer's championships and LeMans twice.
XJRS, I don't know why you're anti-V8. Aston Martin became the icon that it is on 4 and 6 cylinder engines, and then Marek's V8 carried them for a very long time. A V12 A-M didn't even exist until relatively recently, in '98. The current V8 shares no more parts with a Jag engine than the V12 shares with a Ford engine. The V8 has proven a very versatile and successful racing engine also, and the V12 does still race -- in the V12 Vantage. They race the V8 because it's a very good racing engine in a very good racing car.
#53
09-25-2013, 04:02 PM
This could be great, or it could be The End.
I don’t know whether to be excited or terrified about this. The "plan" is to use Mercedes AMG "engine technology" to develop new “bespoke” Aston Martin V8 engines.
That term, “bespoke,” is absolutely critical. I will have ZERO interest in buying an Aston that has a Mercedes engine, no matter how “good” that engine might be. Use M-B’s technology and know-how, use the electronics and emissions technology. Adapt their direct injection, stop-start, etc. Use their engines as a starting point to develop unique-to-Aston engines with their own bespoke bore and stroke, crank, rods, pistons, cams, heads, valves, etc., as was done with the current Vantage’s V8. Don’t just use retuned AMG engines in the way that Bentley uses “their own version” of Audi engines in the Continental series -- let’s be honest, gentlemen – they’re the same engines.
For me, the heart of an Aston Martin – its engine – must really be an Aston Martin engine. That may be hard to define but, for me, the current engines qualify. The V8's block is built to Aston-unique specs, and its crank, rods, pistons, cams, heads, valves, etc. are completely unique to Aston. The V12 is used by no other marque. These are expensive, iconic cars. This is Aston Martin – respect that and spend the money to do it right. Ford did, and that strategy made for the best and most successful cars in Aston Martin history. Build on that – don’t throw it away.
I don’t know whether to be excited or terrified about this. The "plan" is to use Mercedes AMG "engine technology" to develop new “bespoke” Aston Martin V8 engines.
That term, “bespoke,” is absolutely critical. I will have ZERO interest in buying an Aston that has a Mercedes engine, no matter how “good” that engine might be. Use M-B’s technology and know-how, use the electronics and emissions technology. Adapt their direct injection, stop-start, etc. Use their engines as a starting point to develop unique-to-Aston engines with their own bespoke bore and stroke, crank, rods, pistons, cams, heads, valves, etc., as was done with the current Vantage’s V8. Don’t just use retuned AMG engines in the way that Bentley uses “their own version” of Audi engines in the Continental series -- let’s be honest, gentlemen – they’re the same engines.
For me, the heart of an Aston Martin – its engine – must really be an Aston Martin engine. That may be hard to define but, for me, the current engines qualify. The V8's block is built to Aston-unique specs, and its crank, rods, pistons, cams, heads, valves, etc. are completely unique to Aston. The V12 is used by no other marque. These are expensive, iconic cars. This is Aston Martin – respect that and spend the money to do it right. Ford did, and that strategy made for the best and most successful cars in Aston Martin history. Build on that – don’t throw it away.
#54
09-25-2013, 06:48 PM
This could be great, or it could be The End.
I don’t know whether to be excited or terrified about this. The "plan" is to use Mercedes AMG "engine technology" to develop new “bespoke” Aston Martin V8 engines.
That term, “bespoke,” is absolutely critical. I will have ZERO interest in buying an Aston that has a Mercedes engine, no matter how “good” that engine might be. Use M-B’s technology and know-how, use the electronics and emissions technology. Adapt their direct injection, stop-start, etc. Use their engines as a starting point to develop unique-to-Aston engines with their own bespoke bore and stroke, crank, rods, pistons, cams, heads, valves, etc., as was done with the current Vantage’s V8. Don’t just use retuned AMG engines in the way that Bentley uses “their own version” of Audi engines in the Continental series -- let’s be honest, gentlemen – they’re the same engines.
For me, the heart of an Aston Martin – its engine – must really be an Aston Martin engine. That may be hard to define but, for me, the current engines qualify. The V8's block is built to Aston-unique specs, and its crank, rods, pistons, cams, heads, valves, etc. are completely unique to Aston. The V12 is used by no other marque. These are expensive, iconic cars. This is Aston Martin – respect that and spend the money to do it right. Ford did, and that strategy made for the best and most successful cars in Aston Martin history. Build on that – don’t throw it away.
I don’t know whether to be excited or terrified about this. The "plan" is to use Mercedes AMG "engine technology" to develop new “bespoke” Aston Martin V8 engines.
That term, “bespoke,” is absolutely critical. I will have ZERO interest in buying an Aston that has a Mercedes engine, no matter how “good” that engine might be. Use M-B’s technology and know-how, use the electronics and emissions technology. Adapt their direct injection, stop-start, etc. Use their engines as a starting point to develop unique-to-Aston engines with their own bespoke bore and stroke, crank, rods, pistons, cams, heads, valves, etc., as was done with the current Vantage’s V8. Don’t just use retuned AMG engines in the way that Bentley uses “their own version” of Audi engines in the Continental series -- let’s be honest, gentlemen – they’re the same engines.
For me, the heart of an Aston Martin – its engine – must really be an Aston Martin engine. That may be hard to define but, for me, the current engines qualify. The V8's block is built to Aston-unique specs, and its crank, rods, pistons, cams, heads, valves, etc. are completely unique to Aston. The V12 is used by no other marque. These are expensive, iconic cars. This is Aston Martin – respect that and spend the money to do it right. Ford did, and that strategy made for the best and most successful cars in Aston Martin history. Build on that – don’t throw it away.
#55
09-25-2013, 07:08 PM
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Just noticed this one. The GT3 Vantage has a V12 and has also done well.
#57
09-30-2013, 02:35 PM
In the midst of all of this discussion, I'm wondering about Koenigsegg.
I believe that it is an independent company. They make their own engines. Their engines blow most off the road (by the numbers at least).
So how can this teeny tiny company that makes a few cars a year survive at the same time that we talk about Aston Martin being at death's door without a deep pocket motor partner.
I'm confused.
I believe that it is an independent company. They make their own engines. Their engines blow most off the road (by the numbers at least).
So how can this teeny tiny company that makes a few cars a year survive at the same time that we talk about Aston Martin being at death's door without a deep pocket motor partner.
I'm confused.
#58
09-30-2013, 02:43 PM
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Rep Power: 205 In the midst of all of this discussion, I'm wondering about Koenigsegg.
I believe that it is an independent company. They make their own engines. Their engines blow most off the road (by the numbers at least).
So how can this teeny tiny company that makes a few cars a year survive at the same time that we talk about Aston Martin being at death's door without a deep pocket motor partner.
I'm confused.
I believe that it is an independent company. They make their own engines. Their engines blow most off the road (by the numbers at least).
So how can this teeny tiny company that makes a few cars a year survive at the same time that we talk about Aston Martin being at death's door without a deep pocket motor partner.
I'm confused.
If Aston started there base Vantage at $1.5Million or even $500,000, I don't think they would have any problems with funding neither..
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Technical Director
Christopher Edgett
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214 Maple Ave.
Oliver, B.C
Canada V0H 1T9
Office: (1)250-485-5126
Email: Tuning@VelocityAP.com
www.velocityap.com
#59
09-30-2013, 02:50 PM
I had thought of that, but I still don't see how the math works.
The Veyron has a similar price tag and it's known money loser for VW.
So how does this small company develop their own engine that sure seems like it's every bit as good as anything out there? Is it really just that you can afford to do that if you sell each car for $2m?
But AM developed the One-77 and still used the base V12 as a starting point. They did much development to it and sold the 77 for north of $1m each. But the new Vanquish has only a shadow of that engine in it. WTF Aston Martin!? Put the One-77 engine in the Vanquish and shut up those critics who keep pointing out that it's not quite powerful enough. Hell, you've already developed the engine!
The Veyron has a similar price tag and it's known money loser for VW.
So how does this small company develop their own engine that sure seems like it's every bit as good as anything out there? Is it really just that you can afford to do that if you sell each car for $2m?
But AM developed the One-77 and still used the base V12 as a starting point. They did much development to it and sold the 77 for north of $1m each. But the new Vanquish has only a shadow of that engine in it. WTF Aston Martin!? Put the One-77 engine in the Vanquish and shut up those critics who keep pointing out that it's not quite powerful enough. Hell, you've already developed the engine!
#60
09-30-2013, 02:57 PM
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Rep Power: 205 I had thought of that, but I still don't see how the math works.
The Veyron has a similar price tag and it's known money loser for VW.
So how does this small company develop their own engine that sure seems like it's every bit as good as anything out there? Is it really just that you can afford to do that if you sell each car for $2m?
But AM developed the One-77 and still used the base V12 as a starting point. They did much development to it and sold the 77 for north of $1m each. But the new Vanquish has only a shadow of that engine in it. WTF Aston Martin!? Put the One-77 engine in the Vanquish and shut up those critics who keep pointing out that it's not quite powerful enough. Hell, you've already developed the engine!
The Veyron has a similar price tag and it's known money loser for VW.
So how does this small company develop their own engine that sure seems like it's every bit as good as anything out there? Is it really just that you can afford to do that if you sell each car for $2m?
But AM developed the One-77 and still used the base V12 as a starting point. They did much development to it and sold the 77 for north of $1m each. But the new Vanquish has only a shadow of that engine in it. WTF Aston Martin!? Put the One-77 engine in the Vanquish and shut up those critics who keep pointing out that it's not quite powerful enough. Hell, you've already developed the engine!
They can't just slap the One-77 motor in the Vanquish..what would be the point of the One-77 build then..to have a carbon body and aluminum panel, LeMans suspension and then same engine as one of there Production cars......won't happen
Vanquish now shares some engine techno taken from One-77..Nonetheless, if they build Vanquish to the max, that leaves no room for a Vanquish S to fit between Vanquish and One-77..look at the V12 Vantage S
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__________________
Technical Director
Christopher Edgett
Velocity Automotive Performance Limited
214 Maple Ave.
Oliver, B.C
Canada V0H 1T9
Office: (1)250-485-5126
Email: Tuning@VelocityAP.com
www.velocityap.com
__________________
Technical Director
Christopher Edgett
Velocity Automotive Performance Limited
214 Maple Ave.
Oliver, B.C
Canada V0H 1T9
Office: (1)250-485-5126
Email: Tuning@VelocityAP.com
www.velocityap.com