Absolutely. Couldn't agree more.

 

Carlos,

I have been told emissions shouldn't be an issue for the U.S., can't speak for the U.K.

I can tell you that since you retain your primary cats, it shouldn't be an issue.

If I had to choose between the two, Cat Bypass pipes (turbo down pipes) would be my first addition. Not only will you increase HP and feel it, your gas milage will really improve. The IPD plenum is just icing on the cake.

 

Make sure you get before and after dynos of your mods. Otherwise, it isn't going to be very reliable data.

A tune is the one mod that will yield the most gains on these cars. Even a tune, however, struggles to put down the power gains you are claiming from your bolt-ons. I'm not trying to discredit you, just skeptical. I have an '05 CTT w/ Techart exhaust. I've looked into mods extensively back a couple of years ago. A tune and exhaust were the only mods I thought worth the money for the cost/hp gains.

http://www.giacusa.com/new2/products...AC_program.jpg

These gains may seem modest but they are available across the entire powerband.

 

Not sure how I'm going to do this when the parts are already bolted on, but I can extrapolate.

I'm not sure where you're getting your information from but this is patently false. I will re-emphasize again, an ECU Flash or "tune" as you call it mostly increases horsepower by raising boost pressure. Additionally, the air/fuel mix is adjusted conservatively or liberally (depending on application) to best balance between running too lean (as to not melt anything from excessively high exhaust gas temps [EGT]. Running lean too long can melt aluminum, think heads) or too rich (dumping gas to cool off your EGTs but at the expense of less power, but you can run longer) so you may use the added boost pressure correctly.


You have not posted one thing yet that has discredited me but only yourself. Not trying to be an ***, but I have been modifying turbocharged cars for years and I know what works and what doesn't.

It doesn't take much to make turbo cars haul *** and the CTT is no different. The three mods (BMC filters, IPD plenum, and Catbypass Pipes) are good for a solid 55-60 HP to the wheels and about the same at the flywheel.

The CTT is horrendously detuned which is why ECU flashing works so well on these cars. You will get a solid 45-50 HP bump by simply flashing the ECU on a CTT and I think almost any tuner on these forums will vouch for that.

BTW, a 34.4 HP gain with GIAC tuning over stock was probably done a stock Cayenne without any modifications done to it (that's not too good). The ECU Flash should be done last, preferrably after doing turbo down pipes and cat back exhaust. With all exhaust pieces done, you should get a solid 50-60 HP from ECU flashing.

 

I'm not a newbie to turbo cars. All three cars in my sig are twin-turbos. My '07 997.1TT just finished an 8 month rebuild. We're breaking her in for 1000 miles and then she'll hit the dyno for fine-tuning.

I'm not sure why you keep explaining boost pressure to me since it isn't even relavant to anything I've said or claimed. Of course a flash changes boost pressure. That's obvious to everybody. My point is that you changed a couple of airflow parts and trying to tell me they actually yield more power to the wheels than a flash does. If you look at the differences between our motors and the Turbo-S there are quite a few other changes to net that extra power bump but the MOST significant is the flash.

And you cannot extrapolate power gains AFTER you've done your mods unless you use the same dyno with similar air temps. Since you've worked on turbos I'm sure you already knew that.

I'm not sure why you're taking this so personally but whatever...

 

This doesn't mean you know jack squat about turbo cars, it means you have some money. You saying you know something about turbo cars doesn't mean shyte. From your posts in this thread so far, you have only indicated skepticism (which is fine, but you argue about everything to the contrary without having anything to substantiate your argument other then opinion). You seem confused and uninformed to me. Money and brains are sometimes mutually exclusive, hopefully this isn't your case.

I suggest you read Maximum Boost by Corky Bell. Great book on turbocharging.

I'm explaining it to you because you seem clueless on what a "tune" is. All you keeping talking about is "tune" this or "tune" that. It's quite obvious you haven't researched this for the 955 CTT because if you had, you wouldn't be so mystified by how an ECU Flash can make 50-60 HP to the wheels (with diverter valves, down pipes, and full exhaust as I mentioned). According to your own words, these cars "struggle" to make that kind of HP with a tune, I disagree and most tuners will too.

Except you or you wouldn't be so doubtful as to how a flash can easily render 50-60 HP to the wheels.

That's exactly what I'm saying. Turbo down pipes are a well known power adder on every turbo car I have ever worked on. It's not a shock that you can gain 25-30 HP to the wheels with downpipes. The IPD plenum is really a brilliant design and works even though it doesn't seem like it would. You don't have either of these mods yet you feel you can offer a valid opinion and know what you're talking about when you clearly do not.

It's not that hard to get 580 - 600 HP out of a 955 CTT. Anything above this gets a lot more involved and a lot more expensive.

Actually there isn't (someone can certainly correct me if I'm wrong). AFAIK, the CTT S has larger intercoolers (reportedly, I can't confirm this), a larger throttlebody (I can confirm this, 82mm vs 76 mm), a different intake manifold, an ECU Flash, and 380/350 mm brakes versus 350/330 mm brakes.

So, if you think about it, adding a higher flowing pair of intakes (BMC, and this is up for debate), an IPD plenum, and getting rid of the crappy secondary cats, this is just another way to make the same amount of HP. The CTT S will also have less turbo lag due to higher flowing intercoolers. The ECU tune on the CTT S is marginal as the car still has 4 cats.

Yes genius, you actually can, you can get pretty damn close with some simple math and I won't have to pull my car apart for baselining as I didn't do it before (because I didn't see a need to do this). And yes Einstein, I'm well aware that it's crucial to tune your car on the same dyno with as close to a matching fan and dyno setup as possible.

I'm not taking anything personally, I just don't think you know what the hell you're talking about. You also don't have these mods so it's even more ridiculous.

 

You claim I know nothing even though I have been very active in every mod build of every one of my cars. I am not a performance auto mechanic but I understand plenty about FI basics. I've had two aftermarket-supercharged cars and now the three turbo'd cars I own now. I have some money - more than some and less than others. Your comment on the association between money and brains is highly inappropriate and only shows your lack of civil conversation. You say I show no proof to back up my claims yet you have no before and after dyno (except your butt dyno) with your mods on your car. Who is making shyte up now?

Almost all of the aftermarket tunes on stock 955CTTs yield about 50whp/70wtq (+/- a few depending on tuner). The GIAC dyno is one of the lowest peak gain one I've seen. It is on an otherwise stock vehicle. You are making the claim that a plenum alone nets almost the same amount of power to the wheels as a reflashed ECU on a turbo car. Heck, lets put two plenums on there then!

It is well known that a freely flowing aftermarket exhaust and tune yield the most power/torque on these cars. That's why they are the most common mods done to these cars. I said most tunes yield about the same amount of power you are claiming with just an air filter, plenum and bypass pipes. Until you show me otherwise with a dyno I will continue to be skeptical.

What do turbo-down pipes really have to do with this conversation? Afterall, you're talking about a modification that you don't even own! But since you brought it up, how many people with an Sti or Evo changed out their turbo-down pipes without also getting an upgraded flash at the same time?

Seriously, tone down the attitude. There are people out there that have just as much experience and more than you do in modifying cars. You may know more than me but you certainly haven't shown my anything in your posts to make me believe it. Do a forum search in the CTT section for IPD plenums and aftermarket tunes. I have a competition IPD on my 997.1TT w/ GT3 TB. Makes a difference - but only really in combination with a tune.

 

Correct. I have stated I have no dyno data for my specific car. There is however plenty of anecdotal dyno data for said mods on these forums and others. I never said I can tell the specific amount of horsepower I'm making by my butt dyno. I said I can feel the power remarkably (BTW, I know what 60 wheel HP feels like on an AWD and I'm pretty certain it's right about there. Like I said, my dyno runs will confirm for my particular car).

My issue with your postings is that you seem to be posting just to post. I see a lot of people just post on boards even if they really haven't researched something or know something about something. Your postings are evident of this and I chose to call you on it. There is nothing wrong with being skeptical on your part (I'm a HUGE skeptic), I just don't see the validity in your skepticism as you clearly don't know enough about this particular topic one way or the other.

Now you're really scaring me. I have said multiple times that the IPD plenum makes 30+ HP to the wheels over stock (based on manufacture testing on a mechanically sound car). I have also stated that this WILL vary from car to car but it should be close on all mechanically sound Cayenne's.

So you tell me how I'm claiming that an IPD plenum will make as much HP as an ECU Flash? I never said an IPD plenum alone makes 50 whp, go back and read my posts. Based on your GIAC example, since the flash example made a paltry 34 HP to the wheels, in this case, the IPD plenum would be making nearly as much as the GIAC ECU flash you reference. Most likely it was done with a completely stock car and frankly, that would be pretty impressive.

Also, these cars can make more than 50 wheel HP with an ECU flash, it really depends on what mods have already been done. If the entire exhaust has been modified, you will see even more than 50 WHP in many cases. I have talked to numerous tuners and CTT owners who have done the CTT Flash and corroborate this from their personal experiences.

You're only digging yourself a deeper hole.

This is not what you have been saying at all. You have been saying that you're astonished how BMC filters, IPD plenum, and Cat Bypass Pipes can make 60 HP to the wheels when a "Tune" struggles to make this much wheel HP.

What most people don't know is that if an exhaust is good for 450 HP, it's likely good for 500-550 HP. The stock CTT exhaust is actually quite good. The real reason to add an aftermarket exhaust is for looks, sound, and to not impede breathability as mods are added.

Cat Bypass pipes are colloquially sometimes referred to as down pipes. A pipe doesn't have to be hanging off an exhaust manifold to be a down pipe. From a terminology stand point, I would agree with you though.

I come from the EVO world so you don't want to take it there. No one ever said you would do one and not other so your point is completely moot.

If you stop making trouble, I'll gladly tone down the so-called attitude.

This is the first thing you have said that I completely agree with. Of course people know more than you and I. I have shown I know more than you about this subject, sorry.


I have.

I would have to disagree.

 

By your own admission you've claimed the IPD plenum makes nearly as much as the GIAC-alone flash. That was the only tune we had been talking about up until later posts. Not sure why you are scared. You said it, not me. You also then go on to restate that you can net greater than 50whp w/ a tune given other mods. Well no ****! If you read back I have been trying to get you to see that most people that bother w/ the plenum, filter and secondary bypass pipes also get flashed at the same time. The flash dynos that I've seen are rarely on stock cars. I can't find a dyno of the mods that you have w/o a flash. Show me one. Until then I can't see why you're arguing me w/ "anecdotal dyno data" as your proof.

By most people's experiences (from this forum which I read up on several years ago) with the IPD plenum on our CTT motors they claim quicker throttle response and smoother acceleration. Rarely do they claim or show anything more than a slight butt-dyno gain. This is why I never went ahead and bought them. I didn't want to mess with the ECU so didn't see any real reason in adding the plenum. From what I've read, the plastic plenum is actually pretty good for stock boost levels. Again, not my words, but people that apparently have looked at the designs. On my 997TT the plenum shows much greater gains due to the poor OEM design. Even then, gains aren't really that significant until you start throwing more boost at it.

You're acting like the basics of horsepower are some secret that only you have stumbled upon and apparently need some special degree to understand. Get over yourself man. It isn't that hard to understand. Air + Fuel = Bang! Wow. Post your dyno when you get a chance. I'm man enough to admit when I'm wrong. Are you? Until then, lay off the caffeine. I'm done.

 

You're high.

1. GIAC was the only ECU Flash (or "Tune" as you call it) YOU were talking about. You obviously haven't been reading my posts or you have a logic problem (you probably work for Microsoft).

2. I never said an IPD plenum would make as much horsepower as an ECU Flash (50-60 WHP). You cited some oddball CTT GIAC dyno run that only made 34 WHP. I said in this case (which it would be odd), given the IPD plenum makes 30 WHP (and I completely believe it does), it would be damn close to your freakish and moot GIAC ECU Flash reference.

3. I have been talking about ECU Flashing making 50-60 WHP the whole time so I have no idea why you're so fixated on your GIAC dyno run reference. You don't know specifics about the car under test and you chose the absolute lowest ECU Flash you could reference to make your moot point.

You're simply trying to maintain your over inflated rep points and win an argument you're incapable of winning.

You're completely ridiculous. I said that you can make 50-60 WHP with BMC filters, IPD Plenum, and Fabspeed Cat Bypass pipes. You disagree and I disagree.

You have confused your own argument which only illustrates my point about you and your thinking.

First off, you have absolutely ZERO proof that most people that bother with filters, plenum, and CBPs get flashed at the same time. This is another one of your PDOOMA statements. YOU CAN'T FIND A DYNO OF MODS I HAVE WITH A FLASH!!!

The truth is people should do their entire exhaust before doing an ECU Flash since this is what they go off of. I have been told this by multiple ECU Flash vendors. I say most people will listen to tuners, therefore I declare your statement above as bunk.

WELL DUH!!! Why would anyone flash their car without CBP, Cat Back Exhaust, and diverter valves??? Now you're borrowing my earlier points to make your points. This is absolute comedy.

Because there is enough "anecdotal dyno data" to support my claim and not yours. I have been stating the whole time that your skepticism is largely unwarranted.

OK, SINCE I HAVE THE MOD, I will share my experience. As I said back in the beginning. Many people don't realize that HP increases just aren't felt the same on AWD cars as FWD/RWD cars. I have calculated there is about a 23.97% AWD drivetrain loss on the 955 CTT which explains this.

Believe it or not, just a slight butt dyno gain is typically about a 20-30 WHP increase. At the core of improved throttle and boost response is gained HP.

This statement makes no sense. You don't need an ECU Flash (or "tune" as you call it) to feel the benefits of an IPD plenum. If you combine an ECU Flash with this mod, you will only realize more gains. Simple.

You don't add the IPD plenum just to sustain higher boost levels. The IPD plenum will certainly do this for you, but it's not the sole reason to do the mod. The stock plenum doesn't have the "Air Splitter" the IPD plenum has. Charge air sort of collides and collects in the stock plenum. Further, the IPD plenum uses alluminum over plastic which actually cools the charge air even more (almost like a third intercooler, I'm serious). You can run the car really hard, pull over and pop the hood, then grab the IPD plenum, it's ice cold.

From the IPD website:

"Comparing aluminum to plastic. Aluminum no doubt gets hotter faster, but it also gets colder faster. Once the car is parked, the Plenum as well as the entire intake system, experience "Heat Soak". On the other hand, when the car is being driven the intake air being drawn through the intake system actually cools the Plenum more quickly therefore dropping charged intake air temperatures."

In my opinion, this is the real secret behind the IPD plenum's effectiveness. So one can conclude, you absolutely DON'T need an ECU Flash to realize major benefits.

I have said it now 2 or 3 times to you. Filters, IPD Plenum, and CBPs are the best HP producing mods you can do other then an ECU Flash (and other than bigger turbos, intercoolers, TB, and intake manifold). Doing a flash once the car has a fully outfitted exhaust (and the mods above) will only render more HP.

It obviously is for you because your posts indicate you don't understand it! I have nothing to get over. I'm smart to know I'm dumb (I'm an engineer by trade, learned that from Richard Feynman). Obviously with your major Porsche ego, you should obide by your own laws.

Ummmm, no. Based on that simplified logic, I sincerely hope for you that you never wrench because your engine might just literally go bang and explode!!!

Tell you what. If you lay off the crack, I'll lay off the caffeine

I will post some pleasing dyno results soon.

 

i cant even read this anymore. fat911, you have taken this personal and that is obvious to everyone but you.

Some of what you say has merit, some doesn't. You claim somewhere in this mess that wheel horsepower and flywheel horsepower gains are "about the same". That is preposterous and makes it evident that you have a knowledge gap.

It isn't possible that the plenum can add the power claimed on its own, period.

I do agree with your thought process of upgrading airflow, in and out, prior to a tune but it is not mandatory and some companies claim70 hp from their tunes...

Heads rarely melt as the piston does so well before they do, thhis is primarily due to the coolant that runs through them and the much thicker deck surface than piston crown... The only time i have ever seen it was due to severe overheating that was accompanied by further driving till the engine was damaged to the point of being inoperable.

aluminum doesn't cool faster than plastic, seriously???

SeattleBum, glad to see you decided to stop trolling this guy...

unsubscribed....

 

Sharkwerks seems to flash at the same time as these mods...see post #4 in this very thread. Is it because their clients want even MORE power or because the bolt-on's w/o a tune don't net much of a power increase without one? I know what my guess is and I already know your opinion but maybe they can chime in.

https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...ml#post2648719

When I bought my 997.1TT it already had the EVT580 tune (100hp over stock) and the smaller IPD plenum. I decided to bump up to the EVT700 package and my shop, who definitely knows their ****, said that this plenum was adequate for that power level. On Evoms site, their power package doesn't even recommend replacing the stock plenum (upgrading to both the IPD Comp Plenum and GT3 TB) until their EVT720 tune. I changed to the Comp Plenum and GT3 TB anyway since I had the motor built and bumped to a 3.8L and wanted everything in place b/f going any higher in power. My point is, the plenum on the 996/997 is supposed to be horribly inadequate whereas the Cayenne plenum is supposed to actually be pretty good. If EVOMS doesn't even recommend replacing the plenum on the 997.1TT until they're 220hp over stock (and actually the only bolt-on added from the 700hp kit) then what could one deduce about the effectiveness of the plenum on the CTT?

Anyway, I actually WANT you to be correct...all the personal attacks aside. I just don't believe you are b/c there is currently no proof that I've seen (no dyno available on IPD's own website??) or just seat-of-the-pants testimony. Throttle response, I believe. Smoother acceleration...um, ok. But the power gains their website states for the CTT are, as yet, unproven. I already have cat bypass pipes and BMC filters. If I can net a total of 60whp just by adding the final IPD plenum while keeping the ECU stock then that would be great. I'll eat my shoe if you produce the dyno showing 60whp (or ~78.91 crank hp using your 23.97% AWD drivetrain loss).

 

Oops

 

I'm sorry you had a stormy 69, seems to have made you irratable.

How could I take something personal on a forum from a person I don't even know? You don't know as much as you think you do.

This is your opinion and you're entitled to it, I respect this.

First off, if you read what I wrote, you would understand (hopefully) the context by which I made this statement. If you go back and read page 2, you will clearly see that I don't believe WHP and Flywheel HP are the same. Shame on you for not asking what I meant by this. I'll save you the hassle and spell it out for you here.

Given a 23.97% AWD drivetrain loss, if a part makes 30 HP at the wheels, you would add 30 + 23.97% to determine estimated flywheel HP, so you would be making 37.1 HP at the crank. 23.97% is estimated and will vary from car to car and generation to generation. I rendered that number from the Fabspeed Dynopack tests as an example.

What I saying is that in the case of the filters, plenum, and CBPs, the effective WHP was similar to what would actually be rendered at the flywheel:

The Fabspeed dynopack run for the car under test was 363.5 HP. If you add a 23.97% AWD drivetrain loss, you get 450.631 HP. That's where the 23.97% number comes from. The car appears stock to me and on par with typical AWD drivetrain loss percentages, so I conclude the car was indeed stock for the run.

The dyno sheet claims with filters (assuming BMC, but it doesn't matter)and CBPs, their car under test rendered 26.8 WHP to bump WHP to 390.3 from 363.5. So once again, 390.3 + 23.97% is 483.55 at the crank.

Now, if you read further, you would see that I made an assumption for the IPD plenum. I took into account dyno differences, test method differences, atmospheric differences, etc, etc, I simply said we would assume the IPD plenum made 30 WHP on this run and car under test.

So, this would mean, 390.3 + 30 = 420.3. Now, again, 420.3 + 23.97% is 521.046 HP at the crank. So fully stating this was completely hypothetical, I said to take off 15 HP from the top of the crank number (521) and you get about 506 HP at the crank.

So, with the wheel HP gain with the assumptions was 56.8 HP over stock (363.5 + 56.8 = 420.3 WHP). When you look at the crank HP, at 521 HP, this would be a whopping 71 HP over stock which I certainly don't believe is accurate.

Herein lies your problem with the statement I made, 71 HP at the crank and 56.8 WHP are VERY different. However, since I was using hypothesis, I subtracted 15 HP from 71 and rendered 56 HP to the crank as well.

I absolutely violently agree that the actual WHP and crank HP would not be the same. I just wanted you to see where I got that from.

You're absolutely wrong about this. Period. It can and likely does, only dyno tests will show actuality. I can tell you that I RARELY believe manufacture claims but when I did my research in the IPD plenum, I became a believer quick. I know what I feel and I know that it works and I have done this stuff a long time. I can tell you that I believe the car will show that plenum added approximately 30 WHP over stock by itself.

I do agree with your thought process of upgrading airflow, in and out, prior to a tune but it is not mandatory and some companies claim70 hp from their tunes...

This is correct, you will never feel as fast as right when your pistons are turning blue before they melt. You're wrong about heads entirely though, Porsche heads rarely melt, I would agree here. This is not the case on other makes, typically Japanese cars.

Bottom line, if you run too lean too long and you get your EGTs up to high, I don't care how much coolant you pour into the head(s), YOU WILL melt the heads at some point, even on a Porsche.

From the IPD website (and trust me, they are 100% correct about this):

"Aluminum has a relatively low thermal mass. It's capable of heating up quickly but because of its molecular packing configuration it's not capable of storing much energy. While theoretically it does have a higher thermal mass than plastic, the resulting change in inlet air temperature is minimal."

AND

"
Comparing aluminum to plastic. Aluminum no doubt gets hotter faster, but it also gets colder faster. Once the car is parked, the Plenum as well as the entire intake system, experience "Heat Soak". On the other hand, when the car is being driven the intake air being drawn through the intake system actually cools the Plenum more quickly therefore dropping charged intake air temperatures.

The colder the air traveling through the intake system the higher the increase in horsepower. Cooler air is "denser" air, because cooler charged air carries more potential energy. This increase in energy allows for greater combustion within a given volume, ultimately yielding more power and efficiency."

They are dead on about this, it's been proven over and over again.

He just got PWN'd, that's all.

No one said you had to watch this channel.

 

I surmise It's because you're not getting the full experience without the ECU Flash (we can all agree on this). Since it's so easy to do compared to the rest of the manual labor mods to render such ridiculous HP numbers, most people just throw on the credit card.

What I'm trying to get you to understand is that after intake, plenum, CBP, full CB exhaust, diverter valves + ECU Flash, you have a car pushing closer to 560-570 HP at the crank than 520-530 HP and most of the tuners will tell you this.

Most of the CTT mods are additive, not entirely because of restrictions like smaller TB and intake manifold, intercoolers that can no longer cool the charge air, etc, etc.

Understood and that makes sense, but it's a different car. The CTT is a different beast altogether. I have done quite a bit of research and it's horrifically detuned.

Listen, for a car to make nearly 500 HP from the factory, I would say most of the components are pretty damn good. The CTT exhaust for instance, it's ugly, but it flows fairly well, far above 450 HP.


Different cars as I said before. EVOMS is the best though, so anything they say I would pretty much accept as gospel. Ask them and see what they tell you.

Honestly, I don't know you, so it's not personal, you're a bunch of text on my screen. I largely agree with you that's why I cite no PDOOMA dyno numbers, I need to get it done to actually find out.

We all know Dyno testing is a surprise. I have yet to be surprised everytime I get some time on the Dyno. I'm just saying (and I believe I'm right about this with conviction) I'm over 500 HP at the crank with those mods. I could be wrong and I will be the first to post here if I am, but I really don't think I am. The CTT is really surprising me.

True, I don't know why they don't post these numbers which obviously makes people suspicious. Fabspeed posts theirs and I have to say, I'm impressed with that.

You said earlier that you only had the TechArt exhaust.

Hopefully I'll get some dyno time in the next month or 2 and I'll let you know before you plunk the $900 down. I can tell you that if you have the TA exhaust, the Fabspeed CBPs, the IPD plenum, and BMC filters, I can almost guarantee you will be 520 HP at the crank. Heresay, but I really believe it if your car is mechanically sound.

Remember that number is based on the car under test from the Fabspeed dyno run. I will honestly say, I won't doub't you'll be over 60 HP at the crank.