Round 1

I hope that with this topic we can all have a friendly debate, learn and share the passion of detailing, I'd like to hear from everyone, however as a 'Courtesy to the forum sponsors" lets concentrate on the question and not in any particular brand, just as a courtesy for them.


So here goes.................


Detailer A , claims that Carnauba Wax Products are the Best, but his friend Detailer B claims that Synthetic Polymers are the best.


Who is right and why ??????????

 

the customer, and what ever they prefer. the choice is left up to you err on the side of durability.

 

^^GOod post, thread over... really no need for discussion... you can learn everything you want about either by searching each in google, yahoo, etc.

Here you're bound to get way too many opinions, many from people who have waxed a car 3 times...

 

it just depends what suits your needs. that's it. i don't know any detailer who 100% of the time, every time, ONLY uses one or the other. like said above, it ultimately comes down to how you store your car and what durability is necessary, and if you are using your detail for purely protection/preservation, or ultimate shine and looks... then again, i've seen certain polymers compared to the best carnubas and i can't tell the difference.

 

well said....at the end of the day, it's about the "look" you're after. Synthetics have more shine and gloss and carnaubas have more depth and a more "glow". If you use a high quality carnauba from zymöl or p21s, there shouldn't be any issue with longevity. Hope this helps.

 

Before answering that question, what is your definition of "best"?

 

No my definition...........those guys definition.............

Durability

 

If it's durability, then synthetics. End of story. When we developed our synthetic DyNA Brilliance paint sealant, it took us literally 8 months to get a synthetic to have the non-sterile and deep look of carnauba without sacrificing significant durability. In my neck of the woods, NY, a carnauba on a daily driven car wouldn't even last a month; and that's pushing it.

Here are some pics of a car finished with a synthetic sealant.

 

p21s original and 100% both have a great look, but lasts about a month in every climate I have used it in, some zymols last longer, I am currently witnessing vintage going strong after two months. Pretty impressive for a wax.

 

Carnauba has a melting point of about 149 degrees (some sources claim different temps). In the hot sun on a dark car, the wax can "melt" off the car. It is generally the solvents and oils that remain and keep the durablity up.

I have seen Vintage go about 2 1/2 months on frequently driven cars, much shorter on daily drivers, and much longer on garage queens. There was an interesting thread on the UK detailing forums (detailingworld.co.uk) where they compared fresh Royale to 5 month old Zaino. With out knowing which side was which, most choose Zaino as the better looking. Kind of intersting, though in my experience Vintage is a better wax than Royale anyways..

 

The timing you've given about the durability of zymol is inconsistent with my observation. User error aside, with proper care such as washing and applying the liquid carnauba spray, my personal experience with Vintage is about 8 months. I'm talking protections not depth and character. This is on my own truck that is parked outside and never garaged. I'm lucky if I wash it every 2 weeks and there are times I've gone a month without washing. You do notice the depth start to deminish around the 6th month, but the finish is still beading even up to the 8th month. On my clients' cars, I've observed Titanium beading for about 4 months. So at the end, it all depends on how the product was applied, how the car is cared for and maintained, and the external environment.

 

If applying a booster, anti static polymer, spray wax or synthetic spray your finding wouldn't be consistent with the true longevity of the original product itself. I have used many many waxes just as every autopian and not one could even come close to touching an 8 month longevity period on it's own. If you are maintaining weekly or even less spuratic and adding protection in form of sprays there is no way to truly gauge the waxes longevity.

 

If comparing apples to apples, it doesn't matter if someone uses a detail spray to maintain the wax. If a detail spray is used with a lower end zymol and a higher end zymol, then the results stay consistent. I don't know of many people that simply wash their cars and just dry. Most people apply some sort of detail spray anyway to remove water spots, rejuvenate the wax, or simply add some more depth and shine. After spending hours, sometimes days, waxing with zymol, you would be wise to protect things for months by simply applying a detail spray.

On your waxing experience, have you used zymol vintage? If so, please explain how it was used (your technique), what the external environment was (indoors/outdoors, ambient temp, paint temp), and how you maintained it (weekly washes, drying, detail spray, etc.) Product list that you used would be helpful as well.

 

All work by us is done in garage, ordinarily with the client sitting watching and learning through the entire detail. Many of them claim it's more relaxing to them than anything as they enjoy a cigar while watching the work. We have used vintage over jw prime, polyseal, p21s paintwork cleanser and even hd cleanse (which I feel is a nasty product) all applications were applied bare handed top to bottom on vertical panels and with the wind horizontally. Of course this is all simple info found with the product itself and on many websites. Florida climate, mostly garaged vehicles. To ensure coverage we apply twice if not three times per job. (when we use it which isn't as often as others)

Adding anything that has longevity to the lsp will increase or boost performance and longevity, if using something like fk's 425 or #34, I wouldn't say that the attributes would lengthen the existance as much as a dedicated spray wax or carnuaba as you said. Whether waxes layer or not is not important, what is important is the fact that four months down the road if you add anything with lengevity characteristics your findings are not based by single application, so why suggest something lasts so long with the aid of spray boosters? It kind of sounds like buying a sealant package from a dealer that lasts five years so long as you bring it back to them every six months for reaplication. I wasn't with my partner while he tended to a client of ours in Canada or Vegas, but I do believe he used Royale on one trip, not sure if he used vintage on the other, maybe he will chime in on the longevity difference in other climates.

 

If you used anything other than HD-Cleanse to polish before applying Vintage, you compromised the durability and look of the wax. I'm not a chemist, only go by what I've seen and learned. You need to know how to work with HD-Cleanse, not too difficult if you follow the directions. What do you mean it was "nasty"; that's a matter of opinion, not fact. As far as applying vintage, how long did you wait prior to removing the wax and applying the second layer? You also haven't mentioned what other products you used to do the detail and maintain. The reason I ask this is because the results will vary depending on the product used and how it reacts with zymol. I've been using zymol for over 10 years and am a factory detailer trained by the founder and owner of zymol. In my experience, zymol does not react well with any other product that is synthetic. The simplest thing to do is use the products made to work together to achieve the results intended by the manufacturer. You didn't mention the temperature of the car and outside; that plays a key role as well. I know you guys detail a lot of cars and know how to apply products. But zymol is unique and whenever I hear people not getting the results consistent with many zymol users, it's usually user-error.

As for the wax being on its own and not having a "booster", in the real world, I think it's irrelevant if wax is not used by itself. Most people wax their cars every 1-6 months depending on what they're using. It's therapy, fun, and makes your car look great. So if you're talking of lab testing and having results that are quantifiable, then a true test needs to be done in a control environment using quantitative testing and data collection. Until we see concrete results done by an independent laboratory, none of the results achieved by any of us can truly be consistent and valid everywhere on the planet.