Brian spoke at length with Jeff Silver regarding issues that many have with Menzerna.

From Jeff Silver's mouth, Menzerna was designed for production work with Mercedez Benz. Production meaning on the assembly line. These polishes have been out for years Moe, but not avialable to the professional market for a long time. It was only recenelty, when CMA (Classic Motoring Accesorries) began to import Menzerna production polishes and relabel them under the name BlackFire that Menzerna (in Germany) relucantly agreed to release some of their production product for professional use.

Jeff Silver has constantly argueed that 106ff cannot mask, correct?

I have an email that he sent to Ryan Blanchette stating that it can have problems masking since it was designed for scratch resistant clear coats.

I have also seen PM's sent by Jeff to the same member (rydawg)at autopia in which he says that SIP is 3.01, then responds to somebody else saying its 3.02. These are the numbers used by Menzerna of Germany for their PRODUCTION polishes. They make a lot of polishes that you and I don't know about because Jeff (Menzerna of USA) doesn't important them, or Menzerna will not allow them to be imported.

So you show a cart, which means nothing, because guess, what they do sell that product. You proved it. However, please send me a chart listing all their production polishes ( I believe they have about 20 of them, but could be wrong). Of that amount, 2 will be the ones that later became SIP and 106ff.

 

So you are correct in saying that 106ff and SIP are body shop polishes (I misspoke because that is currently how they are marketed). However they where developed as production line polishes, and the big boys (the real Menzerna) where hesitant to allow them in body shops. As Jeff told Brian, they had been used in production shops for 11 years, but it wasn't until a couple ago that they became "public."

As I am sure you know, most of the best polishes in the world we cannot buy. OEM manufacters spend a lot of money working on specific polishes that work well on certain paints in certain climates. Given that we don't work in "cold" or set settings and face many different conditions, these focused polishes wouldn't work to good for our use.

However, the technology developed in at the OEM production level leaks down to our professonal line. I'm sure you knew this already, but which is why I was confused with your statement.

 

Nope; didn't know some of the stuff you've mentioned. What I do know is Menzerna has been working for me for some time now and the results are legitimate since I see my client every three to six months.

 

Menzerna is some of the best polishes on market. I would say that I use them on 90 percent or more of my details, and provided they are worked correctly, they work great. IP and FPII are full proof, and SIP and 106ff work great most of the time. My concern is that they can act up (the SRC polishes) and if you don't know what you are doing, they can give you the appearance that they have worked fine.

Moe, it doesn't suprise me that you have never had problems or say they are legitmate because you are a quality detailer who uses the polishes properly.

 

From Jon Miller, from his upcomming detailing bible (IMO, Jon Miller is probably the most educated "detailer" in the world, a car nut and a chemist) which will be released soon.

Menzerna:
Menzerna GMBH & Co. KG, Professional Products -
Coating Repair Product Summery -http://www.menzerna.de/fileadmin/be_...e/e_polish.pdf

Not only does Menzerna mill abrasives as fine as 0.3 micron, they have developed some of the tightest quality control procedures in the industry. Menzerna polishing compounds are TUV approved (the German Automotive Safety Council) and meet or exceed ISO 9001 standards, the highest in the world. These polishes are water-based; technically, they're an oil-in-water emulsion. They do contain a petroleum distillate but it's a lubricant, not a solvent. They do not contain any filler, glaze or silicones.

These diminishing abrasive polishes are foam pad ‘dependant’ as far as its paint correction / renovation abilities are concerned and they appear to work better when the foam pad is ‘primed’ (a very slightly distilled water dampened foam; do not use a quick detailer (QD) as most are formulated with either a wax or a polymer; however they are not easily adaptable to a spray formula.

To be efficient they need to be emulsified to work as a spray, to facilitate this they need to use an emulsion of silicone oils and water. The wax will reduce the friction heat, negatively impacting the diminishing abrasives; silicon-based products can also have a negative effect on the surface / polish lubrication oils used by Menzerna causing surface smearing.
(See also Silicone Removal, surface preparation)

Diagnosis is the key; not guesswork; always use the least abrasive product / foam pad combination before ‘stepping-up’ to something more aggressive. The most important first step in the process of paint surface detailing is diagnosing the paint surface; density of clear coat (hard or soft) or single stage paint, surface condition; severity of the scratches and the paint thickness available will dictate the choice and abrasiveness of polish / compound for correction or renovation level required or indeed possible.

No matter what product is used it can only reflect what in underneath it;

1. How much polish to use; add a small X of polish to a primed foam pad (two thin lines in a cross, about 3 or 4 - inches long). This along with the distilled water will help to avoid polishing with a dry pad. There after, two dime sized beads is enough to polish an area of 18 to 24 inches square


2. Apply the compound or polish to the surface and spread the polish using the foam pad with the machine off. This coats the pad and the surface being polished with product to prevent scratching or hazing the finish, then place the foam pad flat on the surface and turn the machine on. Do no, under any circumstances, turn the polisher on with any portion of the foam pad dry as this will produce hazing.

3. *The use of a duel level foam pad / polish system (by changing the way each polish works in accordance to which pad and polish you use) will really heighten the paint finish shine. Remember to use the least abrasive first before ‘stepping-up’ to the next abrasive level.Remember to use the least abrasive first before ‘stepping-up’ to the next abrasive level.

*Edited 01.04.08 3.45 GMT

4. Diminishing abrasives require friction to activate them; they should not finish up dry (dusting) but will always have a hazy film to them. Wet polishes eliminate the friction heat caused by buffing; heat causes gloss loss. Polish to a haze- when a polish "flashes" from a liquid paste to a light semi-dry haze; its colour changes from the polish colour to almost transparent; the polish has then broken down and is ready for removal.

It is important to know when a polish has broken down because if you take it too far you (dry polishing) will re-introduce surface marring conversely if you don’t work diminishing abrasives sufficiently they will cause surface marring (this is due to the size of the abrasive and its cutting ability, once an abrasive has broken down it will burnish the surface as opposed to cutting it)

When the polish is broken down properly you should have a clear surface, the polish will become clear but still barely visible on the pant surface. If it is oily ( Menzerna uses both oil and wax for paint surface lubrication) then either too much polish was used or the diminishing abrasives were not sufficiently broken down, if you don’t allow the polish to haze as it diminishes the abrasives, stopping to soon, is like rubbing sand paper across the paint

5. The speed at which the foam pad travels across a paint surface is also important, moving too fast won’t allow the micro-abrasive to ‘beak down’, Machine linier speed; machine left to right movement shown as inches per second (IPS) apply polish at an MLS of 3-inchs per second with a rotary polisher (1.0 to 1.5-inch per second random orbital buffer).

6. These polishes were designed to work with high speed rotary polisher’s, utilizing friction to break-down the diminishing abrasives, while in the controlled temperature / humidity environment (working temp range 60 – 800F (15-260C) of a vehicle manufacturer’s paint shop finishing line. Note that silicone has an adverse effect on the oils used for surface lubrication and can cause the polish to smear, also be aware that working outside you may have issues like excess humidity, heat, cold, etc that will affect there performance especially with the Nano polish (105FF) as it uses wax as a lubricant (colder temps may cause the wax to harden)

7. It should also be noted that these polishes use oil in water emulsion or wax for lubrication; if you are using a polymer after polishing it will be necessary to wipe-down the paint surface with Menzerna Top Inspection, a 1:1 solution of isopropyl alcohol (IPA) and distilled water or DuPont’s Prepsol solvent.

 

Some more from Mr. Miller.

Menzerna Professional Polishes Key: Name/ Number/Formula/ Polish Type/Cut / Gloss

1. Power Gloss (POS 34A) 22984 Compound will remove 1000 grit, cut 5.0 - gloss 1.5, 1500 – 1800 RPM - LC Purple Foamed Wool, Yellow (A hard / dense foam composition (40 PPI) abrasive cutting action) or Orange (mid range, high density foam (60 PPI) medium abrasive cutting action) CCS foam pads

2. Final Polish (PO85RE) Finishing 22972 will remove 3500 grit, cut 2.0 - gloss 5.0, 1200 RPM -White (softer less dense foam (70 PPI) with a light abrasive cutting action) or a Blue (finessing) LC CCS foam pad

Notes -Both Super Intensive Polish (SIP) and Nano Polish (106FF) were formulated for Ceramiclear paints, the micro diminishing abrasives are milled finer and much harder, and also contain a higher abrasive content, 7% were as the other polishes contain 3% abrasives.

All Menzerna’s polishes can be used on any isocyanate polyurethane (conventional clear coats) these polishes are very intolerant of silicone oils as they will cause surface smearing. (I use Optimum- Hyper Compound, and Hi Temp - Heavy when in sun (but not direct sunlight)
(See also Surface Preparation)

3. Super Intensive Polish (PO83Q) Polish 22923 - will remove 2000 grit, cut 3.5 – gloss 3.0, 1300 RPM - primed Orange (mid range, high density foam (60 PPI) medium abrasive cutting action) LC CCS foam pads SIP followed by 106FFP then 85FP for an amazing finish on a black car

4. Nano Polish (106FF) Finishing 22865 - will remove 2500 grit, for light surface marring and / or surface finishing, cut 2.5 - gloss 5.0 This polish is formulated with very finely milled micro diminishing abrasives so they don’t require much friction to ‘breakdown’ and won’t cause surface marring, for LSP ready use a primed White polishing (softer less dense foam (70 PPI) with a light abrasive cutting action ) followed by a Blue finishing LC CCS foam pad - 1100 RPM

5. Final Finish Polish (PO106FA) Finishing 22911 the up-rated version of P0106FF, this polish is formulated with very finely milled micro abrasives so they don’t require much to ‘breakdown’ and won’t cause surface marring. It will remove 2500 - 3000 grit, for surface finishing, cut: 2.5 – gloss 5.0 contains very finely milled micro diminishing abrasives that have a sharp edge that can cut ceramic clear coats as well as the more conventional clear coats, for LSP ready use a primed White (softer less dense foam (70 PPI) with a light abrasive cutting action) followed by a Blue finishing LC CCS foam pad - 1100 RPM

6. Finishing Touch Glaze (PO115CQ) - is a water-based emulsion comprising glycerine, mineral oils and kaolin (China clay). The mineral oils enhance the wetness and depth of the finish, particularly on darker coloured cars, while the kaolin fills and masks minor swirl marks and other flaws. It does not contain any abrasives or cleaning agents. It is designed to improve the brilliance and clarity of painted surfaces, and mask or visually reduce the extent of any imperfections for use in the event that by removing very deep scratches, or when a paint gauge indicates a very thin clear coat paint surface, further use of abrasives would compromise the clear coat

7. Top Inspection (PP95) – use to inspect your work, use this water-based cleaner that removes dust left by compounding and any lubricating oils so you can see the real results of your work. There are no silicones or fillers, just gentle cleaning agents to uncover the real condition of your vehicle’s paint. However this is not the product you want to clay with or use to wipe down the car with after a wash, or use as a quick detailer (QD) as it will remove your wax / sealant (See also Silicone Removal, Surface Preparation)


Slow Hand method - (apologies to Eric C) using a random orbital polisher, Menzerna Final Finish (PO 106 FA or Nano Polish 105FF) and a LC White VC or CCS foam pad - this polish is formulated with very finely milled micro diminishing abrasives that allows for a consistent breakdown and thus a consistent micro marring free finish when used - Start at speed # 4, move the pad slowly across the area, then speed # 5, without any pressure, when the polish starts to go clear, spray the pad with distilled water, reduce to speed # 4, then spray pad again, and then increase to speed # 5 and apply pressure.

Apply polish at a machine linear speed (MLS) of approximately 0.25 to 0.5-inch per second. Regardless of the polish you choose, ensure that you keep your work area small, around 18- Inch by 18-inch panel (hence ‘slow hand’) Finely burnish paint surface using an ultra-fine (100 PPI) finishing, primed foam pad (LC Black Finessing CCS Foam pad) this method is time consuming but the results are well worthwhile.

TOGWT ™ Copyright © 2002-2007. Jon Miller, all rights reserved

 

Translated from Menzerna of Germany regarding some known issues of Menzerna polishes...

PREPARATION
If the car has been treated with silicon, use a wax and grease remover to remove as much of the silicon as possible before polishing. You will not be able to remove it all but it helps.

THE MECHANICAL PROCESS
Polishing is a mechanical process. When a silicon-free polish works on the surface of paint it uses aluminium oxide marbles, suspended in water and hydrocarbons and a mechanical process to abrade the surface of the paint down to the level of the bottom of the scratch. Silicon cannot be removed this way. Silicon is removed by a chemical means and is designed to resist being removed by mechanical means. Instead the silicon mixes with the blend of paint dust and polish powder and it creates a smear on the paint.

We should differentiate between swirl marks in the silicon layer and swirl marks in the paint underneath. Some polishes may appear to remove the swirl marks in the paint but are really only working on the layer of silicon. So the swirl marks in the paint itself remain unaffected by the polishing and reappear after a few weeks, as the silicon is being removed by time.

 

Thanks for the posting this writeup. It's VERY informative and I enjoyed reading it. Jon Miller sounds like he knows his stuff.

 

Wait....now I know Jon. He's TOGWT. That guy is AWSOME. I see him on rennlist and he REALLY knows his stuff. I have a lot of respect for him.

 

2 of the links are from Jon, the 3rd is from Menzerna. The goal is to share information and help everybody out

 

Great info Todd. Thanks for posting all of that. It should help answer alot of questions for detailers who are using Menzerna and looking to use it properly.

 

Here's a link to a thread Jeff Silver himself posted regarding SIP and 106, although I was also told SIP was 01 when he told another it's European version was .02

I alway appreciate the interest in Menzerna professional products and the discussion regarding use and results. Interesting how an inanimate polish can develop a personality and become like a soap opera actor. Do we really believe that it "hides" or "deceives" when used? I'm sure that someone will correct me and tell me that I'm taking it out of context, but let's not make too much of this or any other polish.

Once again, for the record, Menzerna does not contain fillers. Oil cannot hide defects, but can actually enhance defects. Try washing down your next car with a mineral oil bath and deliver it to your customer and see if they are satisfied with the results of your paint correction! The oil is for lubrication and to reduce the heat generated from polishing.

The products that are being discussed were developed for commercial and industrial applications such as in an automobile assembly plant. The people that are actually using the Menzerna products are hourly factory worker and prefer products that are simple and easy to use that provide fast, assembly-line speed results. The learning curve for these working is quite short even though they generally have experience working with polish. They have NO patience trying to make a product work if it is not performing within 2 minutes. If Menzerna were as finicky as some suggest, you can be sure that the workers would guarantee it to fail on the production line and it would be replaced. Of course, if it were not used correctly, meaning wrong pad, wrong machine, wrong speed, insufficient time, incorrect pressure, etc then it would not provide the expected excellent results. Same goes in the detailing environment.

So to review once again (and I'm sure many times in the future!), no fillers, no deception, no kidding.

Hope this helps.

Jeff Silver
Menzerna USA

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/...na-easy-4.html

Seems weird he would find his own statements amusing???

There are far too many contradictions made in this industry, the more you look for them the more you will find by many who profit huge on certain products.

 

Great post Brian. As Jeff states, in the production shop these polishes produce great results. When used out side of very controlled enviroments, production polishes can become very finicky. This is why most professional (not production) polishes are designed for a wide variety of conditions, but lose some of the effectiveness of the production polishes.

I also find it weird that Jeff would contradict himself and be ammused...

 

Furthermore,

Here is Jeff's post from autopia...

The MenzernaUSA website is not current, and will eventually be updated. We do have in stock what we call "Super Intensive Polish" and have given it the part number PO83. This is for the purpose of REDUCING CONFUSION when we have developed minor alterations of products, such as with the PO85RD3.02.

Please take note: PO83 = PO85RD3.02, available in the US. Our distributors in the US should have this product, and if not all you need to do is request it and I'm sure they will be glad to accomodate!

FWIW, PO83 is the US part number. You can see it is stated as 3.02 (the Europe version). However, Jeff told Brian, Ryan Blancette, and others that it is 3.01.

 

Great info guys.