I have never tested 106ff with a green pad but this would support Ryan Blanchette and myselfs finding. When we orginally mentioned this on another forum, the response we got (and supported by Menzerna) is that is impossible because it cannot do that.

Because we lacked any offical backing from Menzerna (who pubically denied the problem you had) we did some investigating.

The first thing we both noticed is that this problem of "masking" only occured on paints that where finished with polishing pads or greater. I called several pad manufactures who both explained the term pad abbrasion, which is ultra fine marring cause by the foam itself as it works the paint (even when properly lubricated). On softer paints, polishing pads (Lake Country white for example) "may" instill ultra fine marring (one number that was thrown on is that light pad abrasion can be as little as 1/10 the depth of normal, wash induced marring).

It seems that, for some reason, 106ff has product in its lubrication that can bind itself into this ultra fine marring and "hide" this for some time. Now, this is a conclusion that "I" have come up with, and is not the definite answer. I would love to hear an offical explanation, but as of now, this problem doesn't exist.

One thing that Ryan and I have done is switch from white polishing pads (for finishing) to using dedicated finishing pads such as Lake Country Blue, Gray, or Red, Meguiars So1o Finishing pad, or The Edge's White Finishing Pad.

Since using pads with no mechanical cut (thus limiting the pad abrasion), we have not had any problems, and have had perfect results.

While I could be off base, the solution is to always finish Menzerna polishs off with a soft "finishing" pad despite how well the surface appears to ensure complete defect removal. As long as Menzerna continues to deny this problem and thus address a real solution, its the best we have.

 

Todd, I cut & almost totally finish with the Green pad & 106, I got a process that works for me.

Most of the time, I'll go over the 106'ed car with 1Z Metalic with a PC & white pad, just to make sure everything is clean, & taken care of. Then top with 1Z glantz. This seams to give the deepest shine, & longest lasting combo up here in the rainy state.

I have done this on several car, each different age, type, & manufacture. So far my own C4s has been my only problem but only on part of it.

 

We you able to thoroughly inspect each finish often after the correction?

 

It only seems to happen on very soft paint with 106ff. I think the isolation of the problem (as it is random, which is why only guys who use it often have seen it happen rarely) is because it is so infrequent. But the point is that it does happen, to enough people, where I would like to find a perminate solution.

Because of my experience with it happening (only a few times over many uses) I personally finish all my cars with a finishing pad and wipe them with 91 percent alcohol or prep-sol to make sure it never happens again.

 

I think temprature has something to do with it. I too did a 996 GT3 that is black. I used sip/orange ccs lc pad and finished with 106/white ccs lc pad and the result was amazing. That was a test panel I did and went to bed. Next morning, all the swirls were gone but for some reason I had buffer trails. I associated this with my pad and not washing it properly. Did the same routine with fresh pads and checked the work half way thorugh the day, and no problem. I think the trick with 106 is you need to finish with a very fine pad like the lc black. Thanks for bringing this up Todd. I think it's important to figure out if it's user error or something with the product itself. The more input we have that is concrete and can be replicated, the closer we'll get to finding the answer. I'm pretty confident Menzerna is making excellent polishes. The thing we must remember is that, as Jeff has mentioned, Menzerna polishes are a crossover and were never intended for us. But since we're using it, our daily routine is dynamic and we must take that into factor.

 

Moe, its really no problem. I have always been open about my experiences with products because, IMO, the internet has allowed us (pro's who actually CARE about the long term results of our clients car) to exchange information freely and help eachother be the best, even on different sides of the country.

IIRC, Jeff never mentioned that Menzerna polishes are crossover, I did. He was amused.

You are spot on, that the best way to ensure a perfect surface is to use a soft LC pad (or other brand with zero mechanical action). Unforuntately, 106ff does have the ability on some paints to make the paint appear perfect for sometime after polishing, and enough people have experienced this to ensure it is somethign I am not making this up (which I wouldn't anyways as it makes me look bad).

The goal is to always be solution oriented, instead of focus on the problems. I have done research, and although I may be off base, it is all I can offer until Menzerna USA recognizes a problem with the products that they import and offers a solution. Until then, Jeff Silver will continue to bash me publically (in this thread he insisted that I made up a story, even though Brian Brice verified) which is poor bussiness, instead working towards a solution to his problem. I have no problem with this, as his opinion is obviously biased (and changes depending on which direction the wind blows, as proven in this thread), but IMO, he needs to offer a solution instead of bashing those who do...

 

What you must remember Todd is that detailing by us is dynamic as I mentioned. Until we can duplicate these results on demand in a control environment, we can't really take this to Menzerna and tell them there's a problem. I'm working on a Lambo right now with a carbon fiber wing that had a lot of spider-webbing. Not sure about all of you pros, but carbon fiber has always given me a hard time and I always have to add another step or two compared to the rest of the car to get the CF to match. I've used SIP and 106 and have left it bare for the last 2 days on the lambo’s wing. The car is in my possession for a week. I'm not going to finish up the wing until the end and will leave it like this and wipe it down with alcohol each night. This will be a great test as to 106's ability as a finish polish. So far, the result is flawless; so this fixed the issue I had with the GT3 overnight, it was my error. For the lambo, I was working in a large, clean, and warm garage when polishing. As I mentioned, and it's been mentioned before, it seems temperature effects the end result of 106's ability to work properly.

So, I would agree to disagree for now until we can prove 106 either way. I for one have noticed problem on one car, that I know of, and I've been using 106 for about 2 years now. I've dealt with Jeff for the two years I've been using Menzerna and you may think he seems a bit abrasive, but that's only because he gets a hundred phone calls and email daily from people that aren't capable of using Menzerna properly. After a while, I would be a little frustrated too. But I think the minds on this board are a bit more advanced and we're capable of understanding and troubleshooting problems like this. I see both sides and we need to work together and not publicly write things that may mislead our DIY detailers we're trying to educate.

I asked Jeff to come on our board, busy as he is he did, and clarify some of the things you posted. His angle wasn't to come on and bash anyone. I urged him because I conveyed how 6speed is different than any other forum and how a handful of us have devoted so much time and hard work to make the detailing board what it is. I want 6speed to be a place of ACTUAL UNDISPUTED FACTS, not hearsay.

I'm glad you've brought this up. Let's compare notes through PMs, try and duplicate results, and help solve the issues other detailers have. As I’ve mentioned, I don’t think it’s an issue with 106, rather we need to fine tune our application and know what to do in different environments. How many products have you usd that were intended for one purpose, but you’ve tweaked it to work excellent for another. That’s one of the fun parts of our job; once you’re advanced enough, you can understand the intention of a product and make it suit your needs. Also, most of the members here don't use a high speed rotary and don't have the problems we do since they're using a DA.

 

Quote:

What you must remember Todd is that detailing by us is dynamic as I mentioned. Until we can duplicate these results on demand in a control environment, we can't really take this to Menzerna and tell them there's a problem.

While I agree that what we do is dynamic and we cannot replicate the conditions required to ensure production based polishes work at their peek, there are plenty of polishes which do a great job in a wide varity of conditions. I disagree that we cannot bring this problem to Menzerna. If their products are "masking" then this needs to be addressed.

I personally run every polish I use through a battery of tests before it ever reaches a client of mines vehicle. Many (if not most) products can mask defects, so I was suprised that it was such a big deal to most people that Menzerna can. When Jeff publically states that Menzerna cannot fill (even though many people have experienced this) and defends this statement so much to pubically bash people who have stated, there is a problem.

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I'm working on a Lambo right now with a carbon fiber wing that had a lot of spider-webbing. Not sure about all of you pros, but carbon fiber has always given me a hard time and I always have to add another step or two compared to the rest of the car to get the CF to match. I've used SIP and 106 and have left it bare for the last 2 days on the lambo’s wing. The car is in my possession for a week. I'm not going to finish up the wing until the end and will leave it like this and wipe it down with alcohol each night. This will be a great test as to 106's ability as a finish polish.

I don't think that this is a good test at all. As you have noted, the coating on most carbon fiber is very hard and requires extra steps. Since 106ff works extremely well on hard paint (and in my experience I have never had anything come back on hard paint) I think the conclusion is pretty much foregone. Also given the sheer number of different coatings we work on, and the significant differences in them, the only realy conclusion that could be drawn (assuming it finishes out perfectly) is that 106ff finishes out Lambo carbon fiber spoliers fine in your enviroment. That doesn't tell me anything else about 106ff. I have had 106ff finish out great then 100 cars flawlessly, so I am not sure what you think this great test will prove other than what I mentioned?

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So far, the result is flawless; so this fixed the issue I had with the GT3 overnight, it was my error. For the lambo, I was working in a large, clean, and warm garage when polishing. As I mentioned, and it's been mentioned before, it seems temperature effects the end result of 106's ability to work properly.

Define work properly? Finish down hologram free? Try to finish a G35 Coupe with 106 and a white pad? You will have holograms? Try is with a blue or gray pad and you might still have holograms. I don't think its product error or user error, its just the nature of the beast.

If by work properly you mean temporarely trick you into believing the paint is corrected, then that opens up the previous can of worms regarding masking. Which is something that has been denied completely on Menzerna USA's part. Remember, Jeff has stated that Menzerna cannot fill, it just doesn't happen. No matter how many people have stated this, Jeff simply ignores it. Tempature has nothing to do with denial, IMO.

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So, I would agree to disagree for now until we can prove 106 either way. I for one have noticed problem on one car, that I know of, and I've been using 106 for about 2 years now.

No sure what WE can prove either way. I have already proven that it fills, as have many others. What is their left to prove. You have had an issue as well, isn't that proof? It happens rarely, but it does happen. I have contacted or been in contact with close to 30 other detailers who have experienced the same thing. Is more proof needed?

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I've dealt with Jeff for the two years I've been using Menzerna and you may think he seems a bit abrasive, but that's only because he gets a hundred phone calls and email daily from people that aren't capable of using Menzerna properly. After a while, I would be a little frustrated too. But I think the minds on this board are a bit more advanced and we're capable of understanding and troubleshooting problems like this. I see both sides and we need to work together and not publicly write things that may mislead our DIY detailers we're trying to educate.

Wow, I never thought I would disagree with somebody on just about everthing (even when we are not argueeing) but we don't see eye to eye on much.

As far as using Menzerna correctly, Jeff has been the one that stated on autogeek that Menzerna is super easy because production people use it and they don't have all day to play along with it.

As far as misleading the DIY detailers we are trying to educate, are you kidding me? I am the one trying to educate based on experience with no bias. Jeff is the one who continues to mislead by claiming something CANNOT fill which does. DIY's need to know the problems that can occur, that is the purpose of education IMO. Not having a rep, who is makes his money by selling product claim something (that has been proven wrong by 30 or more) and call it a day. Thats not education, that is covering up.

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I asked Jeff to come on our board, busy as he is he did, and clarify some of the things you posted. His angle wasn't to come on and bash anyone. I urged him because I conveyed how 6speed is different than any other forum and how a handful of us have devoted so much time and hard work to make the detailing board what it is. I want 6speed to be a place of ACTUAL UNDISPUTED FACTS, not hearsay.

Unfortunately, as I feel I have proven, Jeff's story changes. I have pointed out several inconsistenices in his story. Brian Brice would back this up (even though Jeff foolishly said this was made up). I have seen no facts posted by Mr. Silver, other than to say I am wrong. I don't give that much weight considering he offers no solutions or explainations.

The irony for me is that I work 60 hours a week polishing cars and come on here and give unsolicated, un biased advice. You may not like what I have to say, but there is no bias what so ever. You invite a rep and an importer on here, who changes his story, and you call those the facts?

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I'm glad you've brought this up. Let's compare notes through PMs, try and duplicate results, and help solve the issues other detailers have. As I’ve mentioned, I don’t think it’s an issue with 106, rather we need to fine tune our application and know what to do in different environments. How many products have you usd that were intended for one purpose, but you’ve tweaked it to work excellent for another. That’s one of the fun parts of our job; once you’re advanced enough, you can understand the intention of a product and make it suit your needs. Also, most of the members here don't use a high speed rotary and don't have the problems we do since they're using a DA.

If Menzerna USA is going to import and sell products, then they should be the ones finding solutions to the problems. I have tried, and been called out by the importer.

 

Not sure what to say to you Todd. It seems no answer satisfies you. You seem to get defensive and rebut everything I've mentioned instead of giving a solution. How does that help anyone? I did not have a problem with 106 that was PRODUCT related. As I mentioned, it was because my pads were not washed properly and using fresh pads remedied the situation. Maybe you should read over what I said more carefully.

How can DIY detailers using a DA have halograms? Most people here don't have the issues you're talking about; it only applies to us professionals. This whole thread started because someone was getting too much dust during the nano stage. You've manage to turn it into a thread about you, your findings, claim against Menzerna's flagship polish, etc. I for one don't see any more reason to try and have an educated and professional conversation about this topic.

For the record, I haven't had issues with 106 "filling" or "masking" anything. It's up to the user to figure out what the correct technique is under varying conditions. This is why we get paid what we do as professionals and why client purchase products from a certain vendor: proper knowledge and technique is the key to getting successful and consistent results. I don't see how the manufacturer can have control over their product not being used correctly in different situations.

 

You are the one who invited Jeff Silver over here. He is the one who openly said lets keep this thread on topic about Menzerna products, which I have. Not sure how this thread is about me, it is about 106ff and the problems it has. I can show you where Jeff Silver (YOUR source for facts) disputes many talented detailers who claim the opposite. So you haven't brought in a source for facts, you have brought in a salesman.

You will not get buffer trails from a DA, that is true, but I am unsure why that matters? Jeff said to keep this thread on the discussion of Menzerna products, and I feel that is the direction it has gone.

As far as no answer satisfiying me, I feel that is an ignorant thing to say. Where have any answers been given?

As far as telling me to read carefully, then making the statement that this about solutions, I would implore you to be the one who reads more carefully. I have offered solutions to a problem that your "source for facts" denys. I think that is pretty important in relation to your posts. Also, I would refer you to the Menzerna FMJ post where you fail to have read the post and offer advice that is completely off topic....

Maybe I do get defensive towards you and truthfully I take exception to some of the things you type. You cut Jeff Silver slack for his "abbrasive attitude" because he answers phones all day? He is on here to defend his product, period. I come on here, after polishing paint 60 hours a week (much more difficult then answering phone calls, IMVHO) and answer questions honestly and with out bias, but you get frustrated with me. Makes perfect sense...

How about my right to an abbrasive attitude when people like Jeff Silver accuse me of making stuff up, even though the "story" has been verified. I would perfer to have this conversation with Jeff, but it seems like you are siding with a product importer whose goal is to make money, instead of fully educating your clients. Again, if education was truely the goal, you wouldn't sell them 1800 dollar wax that cost 5 dollars to make...

 

I actually agree with this statement. All prodcuts will work to different degrees. You lack the background of this story and why it touches such a nerve on my part. I have seen a product importer knock my statements and attempts to find solutions to a problem, and have been as much as called a liar by him. It is our job (and why we demand good money) to learn the products and use them in the most effective way possible. I just wouldn't expect name calling from the product importer when his polishes are not everything he says they are...

 

Double Post

 

Yes, Todd, you appear *very* defensive in this thread. You have also provided useful input for which I am grateful. Take the advise of this old man and stop posting in this thread. You are only damaging your otherwise good credibility. Let the thread end here.

Jeff

 

Well at least it provides a good read . Jeff, you are right, and realistically I should have bowed out of this conversation a long time ago, but I have a bone to pick with Jeff Silver. He is the one telling me I am wrong, and the irony is that most of the stuff I have said has come directly from his mouth in other conversations.

But you are right, I am in a no win situation. Jeff, who imports products, tells me I am wrong and that make me looks bad. Unfortunately for me, it is him changing his story. I have had my 10 cents and should have stopped at 2, so I am done with this thread/issue, and if Jeff wants to lie and change his story constantly, then so be it.