Autocar Videos: GT3 vs GTR vs M3
#16
02-25-2008, 01:23 AM
The GT3s cup tires are more sensitive to temperature than regular street tires. The GT3 was slower with it's cold R-compounds, yet the GT-R was still faster with street tires. It would be interesting to see what times the GT3 could put up given warm tires and how the cars would compare given equal tires.
#17
02-25-2008, 01:28 AM
This is an interesting test, but it is clear that the GTR is not a driver's car, but a very high-performance 'video-game' that does everything for you. Ant it is by far the ugliest car on the road!!!
Not even tempted for one second! I'll take my GT3 any day of the week...
Not even tempted for one second! I'll take my GT3 any day of the week...
#18
02-25-2008, 07:02 AM
The GT3s cup tires are more sensitive to temperature than regular street tires. The GT3 was slower with it's cold R-compounds, yet the GT-R was still faster with street tires. It would be interesting to see what times the GT3 could put up given warm tires and how the cars would compare given equal tires.
From the treadwear rating and tire specs alone, it's safe to assume that the MPSCs are much stickier than the GT-R's RE070 runflats (which are also relatively heavy). The RE070 runflats are said to be sticky for what they are, but I doubt that they're in the same class as true R-compounds.
I think the GT-R will be quicker just by swapping the stock tires with something like the Bridgestone RE-01R or the Yokohama Advan Neova. And a GT-R with an R-compound tire (MPSC, Yoko Advan A048, etc.) will be quicker still.
#19
02-25-2008, 08:23 AM
regardless of how much faster teh GTRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR is
i would take the porsche any day of the week.
its obvious that its a much more fun car to drive than the datsun
i would take the porsche any day of the week.
its obvious that its a much more fun car to drive than the datsun
#20
02-25-2008, 09:37 AM
Excellent point.
From the treadwear rating and tire specs alone, it's safe to assume that the MPSCs are much stickier than the GT-R's RE070 runflats (which are also relatively heavy). The RE070 runflats are said to be sticky for what they are, but I doubt that they're in the same class as true R-compounds.
I think the GT-R will be quicker just by swapping the stock tires with something like the Bridgestone RE-01R or the Yokohama Advan Neova. And a GT-R with an R-compound tire (MPSC, Yoko Advan A048, etc.) will be quicker still.
From the treadwear rating and tire specs alone, it's safe to assume that the MPSCs are much stickier than the GT-R's RE070 runflats (which are also relatively heavy). The RE070 runflats are said to be sticky for what they are, but I doubt that they're in the same class as true R-compounds.
I think the GT-R will be quicker just by swapping the stock tires with something like the Bridgestone RE-01R or the Yokohama Advan Neova. And a GT-R with an R-compound tire (MPSC, Yoko Advan A048, etc.) will be quicker still.
When they are hot yes, but in near freezing temps, MPSC are a liability, and anyone who has driven on them regularly will tell you likewise. Chris slid the car around one turn on what I'm assuming was an outlap, that got him all the rear end traction he needed, but the fronts cant get warm in that manner, it takes TIME, especially in a car with a light front end.
RE070's are VERY sticky, and have been used by import guys for many years now on track everywhere, and review you see of them they kill any other non r comp out there. They are extremely sticky, and unlike MPSC dont take a long time to warm up. In these conditions RE070 > MPSC.
So you are wrong. Again.
#21
02-25-2008, 12:42 PM
the M3 is a great car for what it is. The M3 wasn't built to be competition in the same class as the GT3 and GTR...
The M3 would be a competition for the 997s...for it to even be considered competition against the GT3 and GTR says a lot about the car. Although the brakes going out could be maintenance related..maybe he bleed the brakes wrong with too much air pockets in the lines
The M3 would be a competition for the 997s...for it to even be considered competition against the GT3 and GTR says a lot about the car. Although the brakes going out could be maintenance related..maybe he bleed the brakes wrong with too much air pockets in the lines
#22
02-26-2008, 12:19 AM
When they are hot yes, but in near freezing temps, MPSC are a liability, and anyone who has driven on them regularly will tell you likewise. Chris slid the car around one turn on what I'm assuming was an outlap, that got him all the rear end traction he needed, but the fronts cant get warm in that manner, it takes TIME, especially in a car with a light front end.
RE070's are VERY sticky, and have been used by import guys for many years now on track everywhere, and review you see of them they kill any other non r comp out there. They are extremely sticky, and unlike MPSC dont take a long time to warm up. In these conditions RE070 > MPSC.
So you are wrong. Again.
RE070's are VERY sticky, and have been used by import guys for many years now on track everywhere, and review you see of them they kill any other non r comp out there. They are extremely sticky, and unlike MPSC dont take a long time to warm up. In these conditions RE070 > MPSC.
So you are wrong. Again.
#23
02-26-2008, 05:25 AM
You are full of it if you dont think it would kill a PS2 or Eagle F1. The treadwear rating is 140, PS2 is 220, Eagle F1 is 440 ................
For most people I dont need to say any more. I'm not going to waist time arguing over something you are just blowing smoke on, the RE070's have been long know as EXTREMELY sticky, and will certainly KILL other non rcomps.
And let's not forget these are specialy designed, and special designation isnt given to a tire for them offering a new size, so chew on that for a minute.
For most people I dont need to say any more. I'm not going to waist time arguing over something you are just blowing smoke on, the RE070's have been long know as EXTREMELY sticky, and will certainly KILL other non rcomps.
And let's not forget these are specialy designed, and special designation isnt given to a tire for them offering a new size, so chew on that for a minute.
#24
02-26-2008, 01:33 PM
I think unless you see the GTR in person, you won't feel it. I thought it was soooo ugly untill I saw it in the auto show, it DOES look nice in person.
Next year the lighter version GTR Spec V will be out, 200lbs less and 50 horse more....
Next year the lighter version GTR Spec V will be out, 200lbs less and 50 horse more....
#25
02-26-2008, 01:51 PM
Nissan has been quoted as saying no more HP in the Spec-V, just stiffer and a little lighter. So 3600 lbs.
#26
02-27-2008, 02:49 AM
You are full of it if you dont think it would kill a PS2 or Eagle F1. The treadwear rating is 140, PS2 is 220, Eagle F1 is 440 ................
For most people I dont need to say any more. I'm not going to waist time arguing over something you are just blowing smoke on, the RE070's have been long know as EXTREMELY sticky, and will certainly KILL other non rcomps.
For most people I dont need to say any more. I'm not going to waist time arguing over something you are just blowing smoke on, the RE070's have been long know as EXTREMELY sticky, and will certainly KILL other non rcomps.
You're making it seem like the RE070 is the end-all and be-all of non-R compounds and that it's an unfair advantage for the GT-R.
I've driven cars shod with Advan Neovas, RE070s, Eagle F1 GS-D3s, Falken Azenis, S-03s, a bunch of crap tires, etc. and on the track, the RE070s do quite well, although I'd pick the Advan Neova and Falken Azenis before it, and I'd only consider the RE070 if I'm gonna be in a Scooby or a Honda/Toyota/Mitsu/Mazda 4-banger. Why? 'Coz the RE070's sizing is extremely limited. How the heck are you gonna directly compare the RE070 with the PS2 when the car shod with PS2s will most probably be a Euro sports car on 18- or 19-inch tires (unless you're willing to fit a skinny 17" RE070 on a 996/997 Turbo).
For mixed street/track use, forget the RE070. In my experience, they're too noisy and once you add rain to the equation, be prepared for a lot of sliding.
I'll give you this though. For pure track use, the RE070 is probably better than the PS2, but it'll not kill the PS2. And for overall performance, the PS2 wins hands down.
But the RE070 is not the best non-R compound tire out there, far from it. I can name a number of tires that will match or better its performance, including tires like the RE-01R, Advan Neova, Falken Azenis, etc.
And let's not forget these are specialy designed, and special designation isnt given to a tire for them offering a new size, so chew on that for a minute.
#27
02-27-2008, 03:21 AM
Let's see how this Datsun compares to the 997 GT2. To me, that is the greatest 911 Porsche makes. GT3 is substantially slower than the GTR in a straight line, so the 0.3 second difference on the track tells me that the GT3 handles better but just doesn't have the power coming out of the corner...
GT2 will more than make up that difference, plus it has the GT3's suspension to boot with only 100lb. weight difference. That's a better comparison, seeing as how the GTR puts out as much power as a 997TT.
GT2 will more than make up that difference, plus it has the GT3's suspension to boot with only 100lb. weight difference. That's a better comparison, seeing as how the GTR puts out as much power as a 997TT.
#28
02-27-2008, 03:32 AM
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Although at least their not as bad as the new RS6..2025kg kerb weight WTF!
#29
02-27-2008, 09:05 AM
Tires can't "kill" tires all by themselves, can they? And kill is such a strong word, but anyway...
I got that from your GT-R brethren, since they like to overhype everything, I thought you would be at home with it.
Secondly, a tire alone that can make up 1-2 seconds on the same car over anther tire is a big difference, especially when you're not even changing from street to R-comp or rcomp to slick.
You're making it seem like the RE070 is the end-all and be-all of non-R compounds and that it's an unfair advantage for the GT-R.
It's up there with the best of em and unless you can show me where one has been proven faster, I'll stick wih what the guys who drive on them say.
I've driven cars shod with Advan Neovas, RE070s, Eagle F1 GS-D3s, Falken Azenis, S-03s, a bunch of crap tires, etc. and on the track, the RE070s do quite well, although I'd pick the Advan Neova and Falken Azenis before it, and I'd only consider the RE070 if I'm gonna be in a Scooby or a Honda/Toyota/Mitsu/Mazda 4-banger. Why? 'Coz the RE070's sizing is extremely limited. How the heck are you gonna directly compare the RE070 with the PS2 when the car shod with PS2s will most probably be a Euro sports car on 18- or 19-inch tires (unless you're willing to fit a skinny 17" RE070 on a 996/997 Turbo). Who cares? We are talking about cars with stock tire sizes that they came with, and treadwear and performance, you cant compare every detail all the time.
For mixed street/track use, forget the RE070. In my experience, they're too noisy and once you add rain to the equation, be prepared for a lot of sliding.
I've heard similar.
I'll give you this though. For pure track use, the RE070 is probably better than the PS2, but it'll not kill the PS2. And for overall performance, the PS2 wins hands down. Overall PS2, on the track RE070 but a good ways.
But the RE070 is not the best non-R compound tire out there, far from it. I can name a number of tires that will match or better its performance, including tires like the RE-01R, Advan Neova, Falken Azenis, etc.
Maybe a tad better, but not much.
Chew on what? The fact that you conveniently forgot (or ignored) one very important point: the 20" RE070s on the GT-R are runflats, a feature that's not on the 17" RE070s and is requested specifically by Nissan. That in itself makes it special, but doesn't really say anything about final performance other than it's heavier than an equivalent non-runflat tire (added unsprung weight). Nissan also requested for a softer sidewall for a more comfortable and pliant ride so there goes one distinguishing feature of the 17" RE070s (stiff sidewall). Tire compound is most probably similar because treadwear rating remains at 140.
I got that from your GT-R brethren, since they like to overhype everything, I thought you would be at home with it.
Secondly, a tire alone that can make up 1-2 seconds on the same car over anther tire is a big difference, especially when you're not even changing from street to R-comp or rcomp to slick.
You're making it seem like the RE070 is the end-all and be-all of non-R compounds and that it's an unfair advantage for the GT-R.
It's up there with the best of em and unless you can show me where one has been proven faster, I'll stick wih what the guys who drive on them say.
I've driven cars shod with Advan Neovas, RE070s, Eagle F1 GS-D3s, Falken Azenis, S-03s, a bunch of crap tires, etc. and on the track, the RE070s do quite well, although I'd pick the Advan Neova and Falken Azenis before it, and I'd only consider the RE070 if I'm gonna be in a Scooby or a Honda/Toyota/Mitsu/Mazda 4-banger. Why? 'Coz the RE070's sizing is extremely limited. How the heck are you gonna directly compare the RE070 with the PS2 when the car shod with PS2s will most probably be a Euro sports car on 18- or 19-inch tires (unless you're willing to fit a skinny 17" RE070 on a 996/997 Turbo). Who cares? We are talking about cars with stock tire sizes that they came with, and treadwear and performance, you cant compare every detail all the time.
For mixed street/track use, forget the RE070. In my experience, they're too noisy and once you add rain to the equation, be prepared for a lot of sliding.
I've heard similar.
I'll give you this though. For pure track use, the RE070 is probably better than the PS2, but it'll not kill the PS2. And for overall performance, the PS2 wins hands down. Overall PS2, on the track RE070 but a good ways.
But the RE070 is not the best non-R compound tire out there, far from it. I can name a number of tires that will match or better its performance, including tires like the RE-01R, Advan Neova, Falken Azenis, etc.
Maybe a tad better, but not much.
Chew on what? The fact that you conveniently forgot (or ignored) one very important point: the 20" RE070s on the GT-R are runflats, a feature that's not on the 17" RE070s and is requested specifically by Nissan. That in itself makes it special, but doesn't really say anything about final performance other than it's heavier than an equivalent non-runflat tire (added unsprung weight). Nissan also requested for a softer sidewall for a more comfortable and pliant ride so there goes one distinguishing feature of the 17" RE070s (stiff sidewall). Tire compound is most probably similar because treadwear rating remains at 140.
It's still a runflat so though the sidewall may be a bit softer than an average runflt tire, it's still much harder than an average tire. Notice how rough the ride is from your prestiged reporters. It has to be very stiff in order to "run flat" this is actually advantageous on the track. That may be all of the differences, may not be. But either way, when reffering to lap times, it's a much better tire than a PS2 or Eagle F1.
#30
02-27-2008, 04:50 PM
Tires can't "kill" tires all by themselves, can they? And kill is such a strong word, but anyway...
You're making it seem like the RE070 is the end-all and be-all of non-R compounds and that it's an unfair advantage for the GT-R.
For mixed street/track use, forget the RE070. In my experience, they're too noisy and once you add rain to the equation, be prepared for a lot of sliding.
I'll give you this though. For pure track use, the RE070 is probably better than the PS2, but it'll not kill the PS2. And for overall performance, the PS2 wins hands down.
But the RE070 is not the best non-R compound tire out there, far from it. I can name a number of tires that will match or better its performance, including tires like the RE-01R, Advan Neova, Falken Azenis, etc.
You're making it seem like the RE070 is the end-all and be-all of non-R compounds and that it's an unfair advantage for the GT-R.
For mixed street/track use, forget the RE070. In my experience, they're too noisy and once you add rain to the equation, be prepared for a lot of sliding.
I'll give you this though. For pure track use, the RE070 is probably better than the PS2, but it'll not kill the PS2. And for overall performance, the PS2 wins hands down.
But the RE070 is not the best non-R compound tire out there, far from it. I can name a number of tires that will match or better its performance, including tires like the RE-01R, Advan Neova, Falken Azenis, etc.
I have also driven on all of the mentioned tires, and you have summed my impressions up perfectly. The RE070 is an excellent tire, but hardly a "killer" among its peers. A little better on a dry track than the PS2, but very noisy and not as good in the wet.
Bridgstone's best tire in this category is the RE-01R, and for dry use I would rank the current crop of non-Rs in order as: Neova, RE-01R, Azenis 615. All three are pretty close, so the best choice may depend on sizes used.
SCCA autocrossers running in the street tire classes (140 minimum) that run at the top of the class nationally are invariably running one of those three, regardless of car choice or size. Even the faster Subaru STi's remove the standard RE070 in favor of something else, because the difference is fairly substantial and therefore essential to being competitive. However, in my experience, this difference would close up on a road course.
Heavy C does bring up a good point about OE specifications, as I have found working in the industry that what comes on many cars as OE equipment is not what you get from the Tire Rack. All the German makers specify their own unique versions, and this is becoming more common among all OE manufacturers. However, as Henjie pointed out, in this case it is most likely due to the run-flat requirement for the GT-R.....but who knows for sure
Back on topic, the GT-R is clearly an amazing performer given its specs and price - you gotta give it that, but Sport Auto with their very experienced driver was still two seconds faster in the 997 GT3 around the Ring. Same driver, same course, no funny business