porsche response to gtr
#151
04-22-2008, 06:45 PM
i think porsche and indeed ferrari and lambos days as the fastest, utlimate point to point, public road machines in simple terms of performance disappeared long ago.
theres too many manufacturers passing on technology from other forms of motorsport, WRC being the big one, that result in cars that are reliable, give massive performance and are hugely useable on normal road situations, something which lets face it is what we encounter the most, all the while being able to cut it on the average track day with ease.
ive had several cars that could confidently and with ease eat any porsche or ferrari it came up against and had friends with the same. ive had a homologation issue STI subaru that was very low 3 seconds 0-60 and pulled 7750rpm flat out in 6th gear at 135mph all from a 2litre engine. no top end speed but on public roads or tracks it mattered not giving you a gear and perfect power balance for every situation. i had a works spec WRC escort cosworth that was just as fast and could pull 170+mph top end that i converted back for daily use and which nothing could touch, both of these cost me around 30k and never gave me a problem in daily use or my commutes. a friend has an 800bhp r32 thats ridiculously fast and can embarrass almost anything in meets (save other high spec modded evos or subarus) and is used to get him to work and for grocery shopping.
try and catch or keep up with a lancia delta integrale evo on a regular twisty road and you will struggle in anything other than another one, its still the fastest point to point car ever made and its over 15 years old now. the list is endless and to measure supercars in simple terms like these they are going to fall far short, the new GTR is just the latest incarnation of this trend and will not be the last.
does that make them better than porsche or others, not by a long shot in my opinion and from my experience no matter what they lap. to view these cars in such simple terms is to miss much about the issues on hand. the fact that each manufacturer, nissan in this case sets out with the specific aim to dethrone porsche as its clearly and in some cases only stated goal says much about where even their manufacturers and designers see the pinnacle being despite their language, PR and specs.
each time i beat a supercar in my cheaper and faster rally machine i would have still given my right arm just to have been sitting in the car lagging behind, living my boy hood dreams and all that comes with. who cared when cruising along the main street that my car could eat what was behind as a first course, all eyes were on the supercar that followed. whenever i drove one for myself it was apparent almost immediately that this reputation was earned through much more than price or image
what you get with a porsche, ferrari, lambo and other cars of the same ilk is a feeling, an interaction and an experience that goes far beyond what any of these lesser cars can ever hope to offer and most likely ever will. you get something tangible that at the same time is difficult to describe. thats what you pay for and why you buy them. my c2 is easily the slowest accelerating, least powerful car ive owned in the last 12 years and yet its the best car ive ever had, bar none and feels controlled like very little else. you get the feeling that raw power is most definately not the point, thats easy to achieve. instead you feel the engineering from every single pore of it as you sit in it, take it on a run in the sunshine, drive it slowly round town or corner on the limit. you feel race pedigree dripping off it and a sense of class that these faster, higher performance vehicles at a lower cost wish they could begin to offer.
porsche like only a few others are on a level, earned through the years that is an ocean apart from all these other manufacturers no matter what they make or come along with, certainly for the forseeable future IMHO. i guess you could summarize crudely as saying you feel the breeding in these brands and thats something you cant bottle or get just from lap times and bhp.
sure there will always be people chasing the next fastest thing who will jump from brand to brand but i truly think that to concentrate too much on catering to these numbers is the biggest mistake porsche can make.
pushing forward and keeping the pedigree, breeding stronger and finer is a much better approach imho even if that means you dont lap nurburgring quicker than the next plastic disposable product that appears.
porsche 911s are still one of those rare cars that dreams are made of, many of these other cars that come along are just something that scratches a temporary speed itch.
theres too many manufacturers passing on technology from other forms of motorsport, WRC being the big one, that result in cars that are reliable, give massive performance and are hugely useable on normal road situations, something which lets face it is what we encounter the most, all the while being able to cut it on the average track day with ease.
ive had several cars that could confidently and with ease eat any porsche or ferrari it came up against and had friends with the same. ive had a homologation issue STI subaru that was very low 3 seconds 0-60 and pulled 7750rpm flat out in 6th gear at 135mph all from a 2litre engine. no top end speed but on public roads or tracks it mattered not giving you a gear and perfect power balance for every situation. i had a works spec WRC escort cosworth that was just as fast and could pull 170+mph top end that i converted back for daily use and which nothing could touch, both of these cost me around 30k and never gave me a problem in daily use or my commutes. a friend has an 800bhp r32 thats ridiculously fast and can embarrass almost anything in meets (save other high spec modded evos or subarus) and is used to get him to work and for grocery shopping.
try and catch or keep up with a lancia delta integrale evo on a regular twisty road and you will struggle in anything other than another one, its still the fastest point to point car ever made and its over 15 years old now. the list is endless and to measure supercars in simple terms like these they are going to fall far short, the new GTR is just the latest incarnation of this trend and will not be the last.
does that make them better than porsche or others, not by a long shot in my opinion and from my experience no matter what they lap. to view these cars in such simple terms is to miss much about the issues on hand. the fact that each manufacturer, nissan in this case sets out with the specific aim to dethrone porsche as its clearly and in some cases only stated goal says much about where even their manufacturers and designers see the pinnacle being despite their language, PR and specs.
each time i beat a supercar in my cheaper and faster rally machine i would have still given my right arm just to have been sitting in the car lagging behind, living my boy hood dreams and all that comes with. who cared when cruising along the main street that my car could eat what was behind as a first course, all eyes were on the supercar that followed. whenever i drove one for myself it was apparent almost immediately that this reputation was earned through much more than price or image
what you get with a porsche, ferrari, lambo and other cars of the same ilk is a feeling, an interaction and an experience that goes far beyond what any of these lesser cars can ever hope to offer and most likely ever will. you get something tangible that at the same time is difficult to describe. thats what you pay for and why you buy them. my c2 is easily the slowest accelerating, least powerful car ive owned in the last 12 years and yet its the best car ive ever had, bar none and feels controlled like very little else. you get the feeling that raw power is most definately not the point, thats easy to achieve. instead you feel the engineering from every single pore of it as you sit in it, take it on a run in the sunshine, drive it slowly round town or corner on the limit. you feel race pedigree dripping off it and a sense of class that these faster, higher performance vehicles at a lower cost wish they could begin to offer.
porsche like only a few others are on a level, earned through the years that is an ocean apart from all these other manufacturers no matter what they make or come along with, certainly for the forseeable future IMHO. i guess you could summarize crudely as saying you feel the breeding in these brands and thats something you cant bottle or get just from lap times and bhp.
sure there will always be people chasing the next fastest thing who will jump from brand to brand but i truly think that to concentrate too much on catering to these numbers is the biggest mistake porsche can make.
pushing forward and keeping the pedigree, breeding stronger and finer is a much better approach imho even if that means you dont lap nurburgring quicker than the next plastic disposable product that appears.
porsche 911s are still one of those rare cars that dreams are made of, many of these other cars that come along are just something that scratches a temporary speed itch.
Wow, did I just see stock Porsches compared to SEVERAL race cars and special edition VERY small production run cars? I dont see how that has any relelvance to your point. You may be able to say Ferrari and Lambo in the same breath when it comes to no producing the fastest point a to point be cars But you can bet your behind that as a factory produced on a wide scale and sold worldwide car, which is what Porsche sells, there isnt another manufacturer with the sheer numbers of cars that are among the fastest when it comes to the track.
Super spec WRC limited edition super sport evo's and sti's need not apply.
#152
04-22-2008, 07:04 PM
heavychevy, im not sure if i follow exactly what you are saying in response to my post so sorry if i am on the wrong end of the stick but as i follow your comments:
did you read all my post or just the first part?
the aim was to say that the new figures from nissan are irrelevant in terms of what it means with respect to porsche and the 911. its not doing anything new, its doing what has been common for a long time but are just pitting it for the first time in terms in which they usually arent. ie nurburgring in this case.
i was saying that ive got experience of many cars from the same type of seed as the current GTR grows from. for a long time it has been the case that in the real world theres a stack of low cost cars putting out as much or more power than super cars, many benefiting from a washdown of motorsport campaigning and technology and capable of killing porsche, ferrari etc with ease in any terms other than top speed and the latest GTR is just one in a long line that has come and gone. they all have emmense real world capabilities but ive yet to drive one thats come close to being a patch even on my C2 even if they were quicker.
my two examples were to both illustrate that i do have experience of such things and that you can get access to alot of car for a little money in that sphere and id hazard that there was very little production difference between how these were built compared to a 911 like a GT3 being take offs from a production line (the subaru was bought as a regular production from subaru just as you would a GT3 RS though very limited and difficult to get, this was part of the terms for homologation before they changed). the GTR is just the latest of this stream of hyperactive rally bred cars HOWEVER in my experience they all lack the magic and breeding of things like porsche and dry figures and lap times ignore this. they can go as fast as they like but the experience only scratches a speed itch and nothing more and this never satisfies for long.
theres more to cars than just 0-60 and bhp and this was the point of my post. no matter how much nissan et al take aim on porsche in terms of pure performance they are missing the bulk of the ingredients that make a porsche something of dreams. performance is easy to obtain if you just want fast and big bhp. refinement, class and pedigree that is in abundance from the moment you enter is not.
did you read all my post or just the first part?
the aim was to say that the new figures from nissan are irrelevant in terms of what it means with respect to porsche and the 911. its not doing anything new, its doing what has been common for a long time but are just pitting it for the first time in terms in which they usually arent. ie nurburgring in this case.
i was saying that ive got experience of many cars from the same type of seed as the current GTR grows from. for a long time it has been the case that in the real world theres a stack of low cost cars putting out as much or more power than super cars, many benefiting from a washdown of motorsport campaigning and technology and capable of killing porsche, ferrari etc with ease in any terms other than top speed and the latest GTR is just one in a long line that has come and gone. they all have emmense real world capabilities but ive yet to drive one thats come close to being a patch even on my C2 even if they were quicker.
my two examples were to both illustrate that i do have experience of such things and that you can get access to alot of car for a little money in that sphere and id hazard that there was very little production difference between how these were built compared to a 911 like a GT3 being take offs from a production line (the subaru was bought as a regular production from subaru just as you would a GT3 RS though very limited and difficult to get, this was part of the terms for homologation before they changed). the GTR is just the latest of this stream of hyperactive rally bred cars HOWEVER in my experience they all lack the magic and breeding of things like porsche and dry figures and lap times ignore this. they can go as fast as they like but the experience only scratches a speed itch and nothing more and this never satisfies for long.
theres more to cars than just 0-60 and bhp and this was the point of my post. no matter how much nissan et al take aim on porsche in terms of pure performance they are missing the bulk of the ingredients that make a porsche something of dreams. performance is easy to obtain if you just want fast and big bhp. refinement, class and pedigree that is in abundance from the moment you enter is not.
Last edited by neilwight; 04-22-2008 at 07:28 PM.
#153
04-22-2008, 07:35 PM
Neilwight, your points are well taken and I agree with most of it, but I think some of your statements are a bit exaggerated.
The cars you mention certainly have its advantages, but to say that your cars and friends cars could beat any Porsche or Ferrari is an absurd statement. You're saying that your homologation STI is faster than a GT2 or a Scuderia around the track?
Have you seen some of the cars on this site alone? There are guys running 1000hp 996TT's and one guy building a very special $410K GT2 RSR with special DP bodywork, 997 RSR suspension, and almost 900whp. You're telling me that your STI/EVO/Skyline rice rockets or Escort Cosworth is going to beat this car around a track? Perhaps the jap cars might have some advantage on narrow canyon roads where the AWD could help with the quick steering over the 911s, but there are some very, very fast Porsches here.
The reason behind the breeding that you talk about is that companies like Porsche and Ferrari set a benchmark. The Japanese and Americans attempt to beat these benchmarks, but like a home run derby in the major leagues, what often matters is who set these records FIRST.
As for racing, if the Japanese could so easily kill Porsche and Ferrari, why isn't Mitsu or Subaru entering any race cars in the FIA GT or ALMS series? All they can do is WRC to compete with the other econo ****box manufacturers. They are conspicuously missing in the big leagues, save for Honda, who is in F1 and the Le Mans series.
As for your statements about the Lancia, sure, it was a fast car in its time, but with 215bhp, it would have trouble against a 997 Turbo, GT3, GT2, 959 and a whole host of other cars. Call me a skeptic, but I have a hard time believing it will beat any other car in a canyon. In Malibu, I'm sure there are many "supercars" that could beat the Lancia in a canyon, especially going uphill
The cars you mention certainly have its advantages, but to say that your cars and friends cars could beat any Porsche or Ferrari is an absurd statement. You're saying that your homologation STI is faster than a GT2 or a Scuderia around the track?
Have you seen some of the cars on this site alone? There are guys running 1000hp 996TT's and one guy building a very special $410K GT2 RSR with special DP bodywork, 997 RSR suspension, and almost 900whp. You're telling me that your STI/EVO/Skyline rice rockets or Escort Cosworth is going to beat this car around a track? Perhaps the jap cars might have some advantage on narrow canyon roads where the AWD could help with the quick steering over the 911s, but there are some very, very fast Porsches here.
The reason behind the breeding that you talk about is that companies like Porsche and Ferrari set a benchmark. The Japanese and Americans attempt to beat these benchmarks, but like a home run derby in the major leagues, what often matters is who set these records FIRST.
As for racing, if the Japanese could so easily kill Porsche and Ferrari, why isn't Mitsu or Subaru entering any race cars in the FIA GT or ALMS series? All they can do is WRC to compete with the other econo ****box manufacturers. They are conspicuously missing in the big leagues, save for Honda, who is in F1 and the Le Mans series.
As for your statements about the Lancia, sure, it was a fast car in its time, but with 215bhp, it would have trouble against a 997 Turbo, GT3, GT2, 959 and a whole host of other cars. Call me a skeptic, but I have a hard time believing it will beat any other car in a canyon. In Malibu, I'm sure there are many "supercars" that could beat the Lancia in a canyon, especially going uphill
#154
04-22-2008, 08:13 PM
edited to remove my trip down memory lane
i was just trying to show that the GTR is just part of a trend thats not really new.
the current GTR is just this current apex and will pass like those that came before, of that i have no doubt. history and precedent stand as guides already. its a suped up production car pushing technology in a different direction than more refined marques and lacks something truly special that the more elite breeds are built on and as such will always pale.
making big numbers and low times in a production car isnt truly difficult especially given controlled cirumstances bt it doesnt make it good, just fast. heck look at a viper or the stryker. yikes.
porsche could make something much faster than anything they currently do im sure but realistically they havent been the ones pushing the limits of power and speed for a long time just as ferrari etc havent either, theres more to it than that, something between the lines if you will that only a few makes can see. fast is important for all these types of cars but its not the be all and end all. sadly i sometimes think theres a gulf in perception between where the manufacturer sees itself and how some customers do.
i always imagine porsche or ferrari sitting down and trying to always make the ultimate car, a complete vehicle thats truly perfect in every way while also wanting the experience of this perfection to match up aware that you cant have one without the other (especially with ferrari on the latter part). i cant see nissan doing this. they just want fast, faster than porsche and easy to make. that in itself tells you everything about why the cars differ and why one will always be "better" if one can use such a word
yes ive seen some of the modded cars in here, they are truly frightening just as there are many on other forums just as so and many others ive not seen or heard of i bet also. theres many people doing amazing things with cars these days. i often wonder where the line crosses and you loose some of the soul of the car in the quest for strapping yourself to a rocket however.
regarding the lack of subaru etc in alms, lemans etc races, i would suggest because they cant make anything to compete that would also equate into a product they could market which i suspect is inline with your thoughts, i wonder if we will see the GTR stab at lemans? what do you think. its the most applicable car yet that could. its absence in something like this would say more to me than any track time quicker than porsche and all the nismo PR and BS floating around.
that aside, making a stonking rally car does give you a car that is going to be seriously strong on a public road with twisties given the similarities with the two hence why they do so well in a real world environment on public roads. track preparation doesnt automatically impart the same benefits where much of the knowledge isnt directly transferable in quite the same way. try negotiating walmart in a WRC and a lemans car and see which one you take back when you realise you forgot milk haha.
your uphill comment gave me the first laugh ive had in a long time here, thanks
ill need to come over your way and try your canyons
im from the UK but work in TX just now and ive never been so bored on roads in my life. i long for a road where 2-3-4 are the only gears you can use and the wheel turns more than slightly. im convinced i can hear my 911 sighing to itself sometimes
i was just trying to show that the GTR is just part of a trend thats not really new.
the current GTR is just this current apex and will pass like those that came before, of that i have no doubt. history and precedent stand as guides already. its a suped up production car pushing technology in a different direction than more refined marques and lacks something truly special that the more elite breeds are built on and as such will always pale.
making big numbers and low times in a production car isnt truly difficult especially given controlled cirumstances bt it doesnt make it good, just fast. heck look at a viper or the stryker. yikes.
porsche could make something much faster than anything they currently do im sure but realistically they havent been the ones pushing the limits of power and speed for a long time just as ferrari etc havent either, theres more to it than that, something between the lines if you will that only a few makes can see. fast is important for all these types of cars but its not the be all and end all. sadly i sometimes think theres a gulf in perception between where the manufacturer sees itself and how some customers do.
i always imagine porsche or ferrari sitting down and trying to always make the ultimate car, a complete vehicle thats truly perfect in every way while also wanting the experience of this perfection to match up aware that you cant have one without the other (especially with ferrari on the latter part). i cant see nissan doing this. they just want fast, faster than porsche and easy to make. that in itself tells you everything about why the cars differ and why one will always be "better" if one can use such a word
yes ive seen some of the modded cars in here, they are truly frightening just as there are many on other forums just as so and many others ive not seen or heard of i bet also. theres many people doing amazing things with cars these days. i often wonder where the line crosses and you loose some of the soul of the car in the quest for strapping yourself to a rocket however.
regarding the lack of subaru etc in alms, lemans etc races, i would suggest because they cant make anything to compete that would also equate into a product they could market which i suspect is inline with your thoughts, i wonder if we will see the GTR stab at lemans? what do you think. its the most applicable car yet that could. its absence in something like this would say more to me than any track time quicker than porsche and all the nismo PR and BS floating around.
that aside, making a stonking rally car does give you a car that is going to be seriously strong on a public road with twisties given the similarities with the two hence why they do so well in a real world environment on public roads. track preparation doesnt automatically impart the same benefits where much of the knowledge isnt directly transferable in quite the same way. try negotiating walmart in a WRC and a lemans car and see which one you take back when you realise you forgot milk haha.
your uphill comment gave me the first laugh ive had in a long time here, thanks
ill need to come over your way and try your canyons
im from the UK but work in TX just now and ive never been so bored on roads in my life. i long for a road where 2-3-4 are the only gears you can use and the wheel turns more than slightly. im convinced i can hear my 911 sighing to itself sometimes
Last edited by neilwight; 04-22-2008 at 09:21 PM.
#155
04-22-2008, 11:23 PM
I completely agree with your assessment, there have been faster cars than Porsches for a long time, but some of your examples were of modded, or limited edition cars which I do not think make a fair comparison. There have been Viper and Corvettes in stock form that have beaten up on Porsche Ferrari and Lambo since the early 90's and even further, but I'm not familiar with much before that. I'm just trying to compare apples to apples, meaning cars on the same level of production and not limited edition cars available in one country or homologation specials (like the ALMS M3 that they made 10 of for "select" individuals). I wouldnt count those. That is all I'm saying.
Nissan took the 997 Turbo and put just enough on their car to beat it, and they still failed in many regards as the TT is still faster accelerating once the short gearing of the GT-R run out. Up until then they are identical. Same tires on the TT puts it even to ahead in every mag test so far except for Road and Track which is proposterous.
It does baffle me how the "unbiased" mags will not even do an acceleration test with the TT and claim the GT-R beats it in every way, and is a "better" car? That is obsurd, and like you said marketing and PR. Looks like they pick their battles wisely, ones they can fudge and get away with (I.E. Roadcourse)
We are on the same page, just different perspectives on minor things.
#156
04-23-2008, 09:18 AM
I think the 911 is beginning to look a little long in the tooth, whereas the GTR looks new and muscular. Hopefully Porsche’s response will be aesthetic as well as mechanical. That look just isn’t working for me anymore. I couldn’t get over how old the 993 GT2 looked in Evo. Dear me.
#157
04-23-2008, 09:24 AM
I think the 911 is beginning to look a little long in the tooth, whereas the GTR looks new and muscular. Hopefully Porsche’s response will be aesthetic as well as mechanical. That look just isn’t working for me anymore. I couldn’t get over how old the 993 GT2 looked in Evo. Dear me.
#158
04-23-2008, 05:01 PM
He has no intentions on buying a Porsche so his opinion of what it looks like matters NONE!
As many people as I see calling the GT-R ugly, I'm happy with Porsche (other than the throwback headlights).
I'll stick with old and sporty instead of new with love or hate looks. The GT-R isnt pretty by any means, I've not been bashing the looks, but it's not exactly a looker. Muscular is a colorful way of looking at it though.
As many people as I see calling the GT-R ugly, I'm happy with Porsche (other than the throwback headlights).
I'll stick with old and sporty instead of new with love or hate looks. The GT-R isnt pretty by any means, I've not been bashing the looks, but it's not exactly a looker. Muscular is a colorful way of looking at it though.
#159
04-24-2008, 02:48 AM
Originally Posted by heavychevy
He has no intentions on buying a Porsche so his opinion of what it looks like matters NONE!
At present this is very true. Why would a person buy something that costs more with inferior performance/looks? To do so would be to compete against competition itself. Would you pay $250k for a Ford Focus ST, instead of $135k for a 997TT? I hope you can see my perspective.
Originally Posted by heavychevy
As many people as I see calling the GT-R ugly, I'm happy with Porsche (other than the throwback headlights).
I'll stick with old and sporty instead of new with love or hate looks. The GT-R isnt pretty by any means, I've not been bashing the looks, but it's not exactly a looker. Muscular is a colorful way of looking at it though.
I'll stick with old and sporty instead of new with love or hate looks. The GT-R isnt pretty by any means, I've not been bashing the looks, but it's not exactly a looker. Muscular is a colorful way of looking at it though.
I used the term muscular to sum up how the GTR looked relative to the GT3 in the recent Evo article. Sadly the GT3 looked weedy by comparison and the track times supported this visual assessment.
I’ve seen people write 10 paragraphs to relay nothing other than the fact that badges are important to them. Myself? I’ve always found that cars look better without their badges.
Last edited by Z07; 04-24-2008 at 04:12 AM.
#161
04-24-2008, 06:03 AM
Look guys I think the 911 in all iterations is a gorgeous car. Along with plenty of other automobiles. I just love automotive styling period. I just have to ask are you guys really saying this car is UGLY?? I mean seriously, and without bias this is an UGLY automobile? Like AZTEK ugly?
If so then wow.
If so then wow.
#162
04-24-2008, 06:18 AM
The only the the 997 TT is inferior at is marketing, I've tossed pretty much all of the Road Racing mag articles and there is nothing that can be said against them because it's true. So you'll still even have those doubts in your head if you ever decide to get on track with one. And Nissan's own test results with their test drivers support my claims as well.
A 250k Focus? Comon man. So buy your methodology there would be no reason to buy any other car, because the GT-R is "as fast" or close enough to make them not worth the money, and the cheaper cars arent as fast..........
EVERYONE IN THE WORLD SELL YOUR VEHICLE, AND BUY GODZILLA!!!!!!!!
#163
04-24-2008, 08:00 AM
At present this is very true. Why would a person buy something that costs more with inferior performance/looks? To do so would be to compete against competition itself. Would you pay $250k for a Ford Focus ST, instead of $135k for a 997TT? I hope you can see my perspective.
I used the term muscular to sum up how the GTR looked relative to the GT3 in the recent Evo article. Sadly the GT3 looked weedy by comparison and the track times supported this visual assessment.
I’ve seen people write 10 paragraphs to relay nothing other than the fact that badges are important to them. Myself? I’ve always found that cars look better without their badges.
I used the term muscular to sum up how the GTR looked relative to the GT3 in the recent Evo article. Sadly the GT3 looked weedy by comparison and the track times supported this visual assessment.
I’ve seen people write 10 paragraphs to relay nothing other than the fact that badges are important to them. Myself? I’ve always found that cars look better without their badges.
#164
04-24-2008, 10:09 AM
I think Porsche needs to respond to this more than the GTR:
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/04/22/s...n-as-it-looks/
The sound alone to me is more intoxicating than my previous favorite - the Gallardo
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/04/22/s...n-as-it-looks/
The sound alone to me is more intoxicating than my previous favorite - the Gallardo
#165
04-24-2008, 01:41 PM
Any Porsche tuner? There are plenty that could whoop the Mine's R34.
How about the EDO Competition GT2-RS which lapped the Ring in 7:15?
Or the Jurgen Alzen Motorsport 996 Turbo (motor by RS Tuning) which set the Nurburgring lap record in racing and did a 7:04 in the Castrol-HAUGG-Cup, which they actually bettered while racing (6:40 for the Nordschliefe portion alone)?
Those cars would defecate all over the Skyline R34 in any tuned form.
How about the EDO Competition GT2-RS which lapped the Ring in 7:15?
Or the Jurgen Alzen Motorsport 996 Turbo (motor by RS Tuning) which set the Nurburgring lap record in racing and did a 7:04 in the Castrol-HAUGG-Cup, which they actually bettered while racing (6:40 for the Nordschliefe portion alone)?
Those cars would defecate all over the Skyline R34 in any tuned form.
Last edited by Nthusiastt; 04-24-2008 at 02:05 PM.