porsche response to gtr
#48
04-06-2008, 10:56 PM
The absolute best post I've seen around here in a long, long time. Kudos, man. Excellent response.
A "Porsche is a Porsche" because it's long been one of the best engineered, most entertaining cars around. That ceases to be the case Porsche will loose brand image just as fast as Cadillac before it.
Make no mistake- the 997 TT loosing nearly 5 seconds a lap to the GTR (R&T), which as you rightly point out is a whole class down, is a serious threat not just to the 997 TT but to Porsche as a company. Obviously there have been cars cheaper and faster than Porsche flagships before (Z06, etc) but never one so much faster with so few excuses. Unlike a Z06, the GTR is a "jack of all trades" like the Turbo, so you can't suggest that it's simply a striped out track specialist (like a Z06 or Elise). It's faster simply due to better engineering, and it's difficult to say otherwise. That's the threat- engineering is where Porsche has built its reputation and how it's stayed at the front of the pack in usable road cars, perfecting passive rear wheel steering, 4wd, PCCB, VG turbos, etc to keep at the front of the pack.
Unfortunately Porsche has cheaped out in other areas over the last 10 years, and it's now coming back to bite them. They are using derivatives of air-cooled blocks from the early 90s in their 2008 flagship GT series cars, with water cooling and 4v heads bolted on after the fact. This leads to engines 100+ lbs heavier than their competition for similar output- if they used CGT technology they could save 150+ lbs in the motor alone, which as it's hanging out the back would be huge. Same story in the transmission- they have stuck with slush-boxes despite the twin-clutch writing being on the wall for years. These decisions saved lots of money; I'm sure the bean-counters weighed eroding their highest-in-the-business profit margins vs staying at the leading edge, and decided to take short-term profit over long-term technical superiority. Good for them- they've made tons of money, but now the bill is due.
Porsche absolutely needs to show that it can answer the GTR and the copycats it will spawn, or it will resign itself to the roll of an ex-pro athlete, trading on past glory and quickly forgotten. In my mind a stripped out 997TT is a half-step band-aid: it clearly won't close a 5 second a lap gap, and it will be open the the same criticism that we all lay at the Z06, Viper, etc's feet (sure it's fast, but...). What's needed will cost porsche real money- a new lightweight block for their GT models, a new transmission (keep developing the manual option) and a chassis optimized around these components. If history holds these will be outstanding components that will last Porsche another 15 years, but they are now overdue, and Porsche needs to bring them out ASAP.
I want to buy a car for what it does, not what the company that made it used to do. Time for Porsche to get it's act together.
-Pete
Make no mistake- the 997 TT loosing nearly 5 seconds a lap to the GTR (R&T), which as you rightly point out is a whole class down, is a serious threat not just to the 997 TT but to Porsche as a company. Obviously there have been cars cheaper and faster than Porsche flagships before (Z06, etc) but never one so much faster with so few excuses. Unlike a Z06, the GTR is a "jack of all trades" like the Turbo, so you can't suggest that it's simply a striped out track specialist (like a Z06 or Elise). It's faster simply due to better engineering, and it's difficult to say otherwise. That's the threat- engineering is where Porsche has built its reputation and how it's stayed at the front of the pack in usable road cars, perfecting passive rear wheel steering, 4wd, PCCB, VG turbos, etc to keep at the front of the pack.
Unfortunately Porsche has cheaped out in other areas over the last 10 years, and it's now coming back to bite them. They are using derivatives of air-cooled blocks from the early 90s in their 2008 flagship GT series cars, with water cooling and 4v heads bolted on after the fact. This leads to engines 100+ lbs heavier than their competition for similar output- if they used CGT technology they could save 150+ lbs in the motor alone, which as it's hanging out the back would be huge. Same story in the transmission- they have stuck with slush-boxes despite the twin-clutch writing being on the wall for years. These decisions saved lots of money; I'm sure the bean-counters weighed eroding their highest-in-the-business profit margins vs staying at the leading edge, and decided to take short-term profit over long-term technical superiority. Good for them- they've made tons of money, but now the bill is due.
Porsche absolutely needs to show that it can answer the GTR and the copycats it will spawn, or it will resign itself to the roll of an ex-pro athlete, trading on past glory and quickly forgotten. In my mind a stripped out 997TT is a half-step band-aid: it clearly won't close a 5 second a lap gap, and it will be open the the same criticism that we all lay at the Z06, Viper, etc's feet (sure it's fast, but...). What's needed will cost porsche real money- a new lightweight block for their GT models, a new transmission (keep developing the manual option) and a chassis optimized around these components. If history holds these will be outstanding components that will last Porsche another 15 years, but they are now overdue, and Porsche needs to bring them out ASAP.
I want to buy a car for what it does, not what the company that made it used to do. Time for Porsche to get it's act together.
-Pete
#49
04-06-2008, 11:00 PM
I agree as well.
I don't think its appropriate to discredit a vehicle's performance based on its make/ manufacturer as seems to happen all too often with the GTR. For the past 5-6 years, Porsche have gloated on their sub 8 min laptimes of the nurburgring and all of a sudden when a 'Datsun' does better we knock it.
Frankly, Porsche are in the business of manufacturing some of the best performance cars in the world. And performance is basically determined by a combination of speed and handling. If a fat, heavy GTR can better the straight line and laptime figures (at most tracks tested to date) of Porsches twice its price (GT3 and turbo), we are being short changed somewhere along the line with speed or handling. We shouldn't have to spend three times (GT2) the price of a GTR to be competitive.
Lets not kid ourselves, Porsche are in the business of performance sports cars, NOT family cars and they charge enthusiasts big $$$ accordingly for the priviledge. Therefore if a fugly DATSUN can out do them, ain't it time the good folk at Porsche AG pulled their heads out of their backsides and ensured they put the effort into "remaining the benchmark" by which all others a judged? Its time for Porsche to answer the challenge and give their loyal customers what we deserve-the best barr non!
I have placed a deposit with my dealer for a 997 GT3 MkII and would like to think I will be receiving the best performance/part-time track car that money can buy, NOT A HAS BEEN! Especially considering I am paying almost twice the price of a fugly GTR. Otherwise maybe i'll buy the Datto and holiday for a year with the change!
For those individuals who believe that Porsche have no challenge to answer, all I can say is that the Porsche marketing /PR machine deserve every last cent they earn because they have succeeded in pulling the wool over our eyes nicely! Especially if the can convince us to spend that much money to be second best whilst saving their company million of dollars in car development. Porsche have spent 40+ years developing a loyal customer base by providing the BEST performance cars(arguably) at a reasonable price. I'd hate to put that loyalty to the test- with the exception of fanatics, most buy a performance car for just that, "PERFORMANCE"...
As the saying says" If you can't party with the big boys, don't show up!"
Frankly, Porsche are in the business of manufacturing some of the best performance cars in the world. And performance is basically determined by a combination of speed and handling. If a fat, heavy GTR can better the straight line and laptime figures (at most tracks tested to date) of Porsches twice its price (GT3 and turbo), we are being short changed somewhere along the line with speed or handling. We shouldn't have to spend three times (GT2) the price of a GTR to be competitive.
Lets not kid ourselves, Porsche are in the business of performance sports cars, NOT family cars and they charge enthusiasts big $$$ accordingly for the priviledge. Therefore if a fugly DATSUN can out do them, ain't it time the good folk at Porsche AG pulled their heads out of their backsides and ensured they put the effort into "remaining the benchmark" by which all others a judged? Its time for Porsche to answer the challenge and give their loyal customers what we deserve-the best barr non!
I have placed a deposit with my dealer for a 997 GT3 MkII and would like to think I will be receiving the best performance/part-time track car that money can buy, NOT A HAS BEEN! Especially considering I am paying almost twice the price of a fugly GTR. Otherwise maybe i'll buy the Datto and holiday for a year with the change!
For those individuals who believe that Porsche have no challenge to answer, all I can say is that the Porsche marketing /PR machine deserve every last cent they earn because they have succeeded in pulling the wool over our eyes nicely! Especially if the can convince us to spend that much money to be second best whilst saving their company million of dollars in car development. Porsche have spent 40+ years developing a loyal customer base by providing the BEST performance cars(arguably) at a reasonable price. I'd hate to put that loyalty to the test- with the exception of fanatics, most buy a performance car for just that, "PERFORMANCE"...
As the saying says" If you can't party with the big boys, don't show up!"
#50
04-07-2008, 03:42 AM
Same, same Zeus and petevb!!!
I just hope some of these posts are getting back to those geniuses at Porsche AG because these views are coming from their loyal supporters! And its very sound advice....
It's about time they gave marketing a rest (or sent them on a holiday) and spent a few $$$ on r&d. I suppose it depends on how much they value what they have managed to achieve to date... Hopefully, they won't have to work this out the hard way las has been demonstrated by many companies before them!
Nissan and other manufacturers are obviously meeting their objective of knocking Porsche off the top spot or I don't think we, the people who buy their product would be questioning their current direction and rate of progress and development.
As for those who are in denial, think about how you'll feel about your valued P car in 12 months time if some dude flies past you on the track in a fugly GTR! Pretty p'ed off i'd say... I would be!
I just hope some of these posts are getting back to those geniuses at Porsche AG because these views are coming from their loyal supporters! And its very sound advice....
It's about time they gave marketing a rest (or sent them on a holiday) and spent a few $$$ on r&d. I suppose it depends on how much they value what they have managed to achieve to date... Hopefully, they won't have to work this out the hard way las has been demonstrated by many companies before them!
Nissan and other manufacturers are obviously meeting their objective of knocking Porsche off the top spot or I don't think we, the people who buy their product would be questioning their current direction and rate of progress and development.
As for those who are in denial, think about how you'll feel about your valued P car in 12 months time if some dude flies past you on the track in a fugly GTR! Pretty p'ed off i'd say... I would be!
#51
04-07-2008, 01:45 PM
I agree with everyone! YES! Porsche is simply.. Porsche. Not all Porsches are the greatest but ALL Porsches have that extra "something" that rings our bells. Absolute performance for the dollar? Of course not. So you pay a bit less and you get a Nissan.... So, why not buy a Westfield instead and put a good turbo engine in it? It is all so relative. I am lucky enought to have a couple of the fastest cars on the street but I still get a kick out of my 2.0S, AND I can USE it a LOT more without even worrying about going to jail!
Ferraris? And others? Same sorta thing. It is the FEEL, the SOUND, and all those amazing sensory things that remind you this is something interesing and special. Hey, for that matter I get a big rush outta driving my beater LS Lexus... Yea, really. It has SO much more performance than this big tub of lard every should and does everything so well... for what it is. I even have given it an affectionate nickname "Luxobarge". It's all relative folks. ENJOY what you got. There will always be something better. And for us USofA guys, so...... where, exactly [track excluded] are you going to actually USE all this performance?
hahahahahahahaha
JR
Ferraris? And others? Same sorta thing. It is the FEEL, the SOUND, and all those amazing sensory things that remind you this is something interesing and special. Hey, for that matter I get a big rush outta driving my beater LS Lexus... Yea, really. It has SO much more performance than this big tub of lard every should and does everything so well... for what it is. I even have given it an affectionate nickname "Luxobarge". It's all relative folks. ENJOY what you got. There will always be something better. And for us USofA guys, so...... where, exactly [track excluded] are you going to actually USE all this performance?
hahahahahahahaha
JR
#52
04-07-2008, 02:10 PM
I don't agree with what you guys are saying, sure it's a Nissan and has a automatic tranny but it shows that the 997 turbo's are vulnerable to other car makes no matter who makes one. Would I buy a GTR, hell no but then again if I do spend money for a Turbo or any car costing almost double, it had better be FASTER than the competition.
I'm not sure if most of you are biased because you own a Porsche but in all seriousness, Porsches are dime a dozen too so it's not like the holy grail. A Ferrari can say it's a Ferrari but a Porsche quite simply does not have the prestige of a Ferrari. Don't take my word for it since I've gotten this response from quite a few exotic owners.
I'm not sure if most of you are biased because you own a Porsche but in all seriousness, Porsches are dime a dozen too so it's not like the holy grail. A Ferrari can say it's a Ferrari but a Porsche quite simply does not have the prestige of a Ferrari. Don't take my word for it since I've gotten this response from quite a few exotic owners.
#53
04-07-2008, 11:08 PM
The 997TT has always been vulnerable since it came out, nothing new there. It barely hung in with the z06.
When the hype started building about the z06's 'Ring lap time being 7:42, Porsche went back to the track and started advertising that they were able to get 7:40 on a properly set up 997TT. This is all just a game to them. Now Nissan is supposedly able to get a 7:38, but sport auto shows they are in the 7:54 range. It's all marketing BS on all sides, so I have little faith in what the media and manufacturers write about.
What I do know is that I would never pay 70,000 dollars for a Nissan, just like how I would never spend over 60,000 for a Volkswagen (e.g. please see Phaeton) or a Hyundai Genesis.
When I spend my money on a Porsche 911, I know that I am buying a car with 40 years of heritage, stubborn rear engine placement, quirky yet rewarding handling dynamics, and continual improvement (even if it is slight improvement in the case of the 996TT to 997TT).
It's basically the same car I've always dreamed about having, since I was younger. Top that off with the fact that it's capable of being reliably driven on a daily basis with relatively low maintenance costs and comes in stick, makes it the best value to me.
Nissan may be able to give performance at a bargain price, but I really view this as no different to the z06, evo, and WRX's out there. Ugly shape, and it's not of the heritage and class that I want to spend my money on. All other factors seem to be competitive.
The Ferrari/Lambo/exotic argument about prestige, etc is all pointless as well. Those are expensive cars with expensive maintenance costs, not to mention the fact that very few of them would be driven daily.
Porsche is in the middle ground of both extremes above in terms of performance, reliability, and daily drivability.
When the hype started building about the z06's 'Ring lap time being 7:42, Porsche went back to the track and started advertising that they were able to get 7:40 on a properly set up 997TT. This is all just a game to them. Now Nissan is supposedly able to get a 7:38, but sport auto shows they are in the 7:54 range. It's all marketing BS on all sides, so I have little faith in what the media and manufacturers write about.
What I do know is that I would never pay 70,000 dollars for a Nissan, just like how I would never spend over 60,000 for a Volkswagen (e.g. please see Phaeton) or a Hyundai Genesis.
When I spend my money on a Porsche 911, I know that I am buying a car with 40 years of heritage, stubborn rear engine placement, quirky yet rewarding handling dynamics, and continual improvement (even if it is slight improvement in the case of the 996TT to 997TT).
It's basically the same car I've always dreamed about having, since I was younger. Top that off with the fact that it's capable of being reliably driven on a daily basis with relatively low maintenance costs and comes in stick, makes it the best value to me.
Nissan may be able to give performance at a bargain price, but I really view this as no different to the z06, evo, and WRX's out there. Ugly shape, and it's not of the heritage and class that I want to spend my money on. All other factors seem to be competitive.
The Ferrari/Lambo/exotic argument about prestige, etc is all pointless as well. Those are expensive cars with expensive maintenance costs, not to mention the fact that very few of them would be driven daily.
Porsche is in the middle ground of both extremes above in terms of performance, reliability, and daily drivability.
#54
04-07-2008, 11:45 PM
The only way these bragging rights at the ring would stop is when a test driver dies.
They are no longer testing the car at the ring but trying to do hero laps.
As seen the GTR was faster than the ZO6 at the ring but from newer results its 1/4 and street battles it has lost out.
They are no longer testing the car at the ring but trying to do hero laps.
As seen the GTR was faster than the ZO6 at the ring but from newer results its 1/4 and street battles it has lost out.
#55
04-08-2008, 04:26 AM
GT-R for performance and daily driver and then Ferrari F430 or Lamborghini Mucielago for the exotic... I don't see where exactly the Porsche fits in anymore.
Porsche has always been able to count on it's abilities on the track... without that... I think it may lose much of it's appeal.
Porsche has always been able to count on it's abilities on the track... without that... I think it may lose much of it's appeal.
#56
04-08-2008, 08:26 AM
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Hi guys,
porsche's main concern should not be about the "die hard" porsche fans, since they will probably stay true to the brand even if porsche makes second best cars.
If porsche wants to stay best of the best it is crucial for them, to convince the unconvinced, t.i. people, who do not belong to any of brand and are choosin the best for money can buy.
This is why in my opinion the GT-R is a big threat to porsche.
porsche's main concern should not be about the "die hard" porsche fans, since they will probably stay true to the brand even if porsche makes second best cars.
If porsche wants to stay best of the best it is crucial for them, to convince the unconvinced, t.i. people, who do not belong to any of brand and are choosin the best for money can buy.
This is why in my opinion the GT-R is a big threat to porsche.
#57
04-08-2008, 08:51 AM
Not to mention you can't get one, I am sure they will be selling for way over MSRP for the first year.
#58
04-08-2008, 09:46 AM
Most hot cars sell for over MSRP first year so won't stop the people who really want them. Just look at R8, GT3, GT3 RS, CGT, F430, etc....
I think one of the posters said it best, Porsche has done a great job pulling a wool over the eyes of those who disbelieve the GTR is a threat. Pay more and get less performance - yikes they have great marketing!
I think Peter said this but quite simply people today want to buy a car for what it does TODAY, not what it has already done in the the past.
rick
#59
04-08-2008, 10:00 AM
Hi guys,
porsche's main concern should not be about the "die hard" porsche fans, since they will probably stay true to the brand even if porsche makes second best cars.
If porsche wants to stay best of the best it is crucial for them, to convince the unconvinced, t.i. people, who do not belong to any of brand and are choosin the best for money can buy.
This is why in my opinion the GT-R is a big threat to porsche.
porsche's main concern should not be about the "die hard" porsche fans, since they will probably stay true to the brand even if porsche makes second best cars.
If porsche wants to stay best of the best it is crucial for them, to convince the unconvinced, t.i. people, who do not belong to any of brand and are choosin the best for money can buy.
This is why in my opinion the GT-R is a big threat to porsche.
The other day, I was driving past a Nissan dealership and saw that they had a used Cayman S in the front, for sale. I was in my daily, so I figured I could stop in, and ask about the GTR, plus find out how they got the Cayman S.
Turns out the Cayman S owner traded his car in for a GTR, that he is still waiting for. The Nissan dealership now show boats how they have a used Porsche in the front, for sale, so that they can bait would-be potential Porsche buyers in the 70K range.
And this is where the problem occurs. Porsche Boxster and Cayman owners looking for more horsepower have a lot of choices out there now, as do the non-Porsche owners. At $50,000 plus, there are so many performance cars: GTR, M3, c63, is-F.
The GTR is selling for 20 above sticker there, but they were willing to negotiate. The sales people were talking about it like it was a religious experience and that it kills 911 turbos and Corvettes. I laughed and mentioned he should look at the GT2 and read the GTR blog about the run in with the z06. Again, more hype.
Last edited by RiceEater; 04-08-2008 at 10:19 AM.
#60
04-08-2008, 10:24 AM
Most hot cars sell for over MSRP first year so won't stop the people who really want them. Just look at R8, GT3, GT3 RS, CGT, F430, etc....
I think one of the posters said it best, Porsche has done a great job pulling a wool over the eyes of those who disbelieve the GTR is a threat. Pay more and get less performance - yikes they have great marketing!
I think Peter said this but quite simply people today want to buy a car for what it does TODAY, not what it has already done in the the past.
rick
I think one of the posters said it best, Porsche has done a great job pulling a wool over the eyes of those who disbelieve the GTR is a threat. Pay more and get less performance - yikes they have great marketing!
I think Peter said this but quite simply people today want to buy a car for what it does TODAY, not what it has already done in the the past.
rick
But back to the 911 versus all others:
This really depends on how you view your 911. If you marginalize the 911 (like Ferrari and Lambo owners do) to just a car with no heritage or driving experience, then yes the GTR will be a threat.
I've never marginalized the 911 because it has always been renowned for being a great sports car with great feed back, reliability, steering, and handling. It's been considered the standard for so many years, despite being underpowered, rear engined, and having a small displacement.
I can see how marketing can drive owners to drink the Porsche kool-aid as well, but this is pure fact: the 911 has improved and evolved for the last 40 years, and you can tell that it is a 911 when you look at it.
I can't see any heritage with the Ferrari car shapes. They have a rich Formula 1 racing history, but I don't see the relation between the 360CS and 355, nor the Testarosa with any other Ferrari. Lamborghini comes pretty close with their doors and sharp lines (which is why I prefer their shapes to Ferrari's).
The GTR shape is gross, plain and simple. It can perform like a 911, but we'll see how many drivers decide to keep them. You can only brag for so long until you realize you just bought a souped up Infiniti G37.