Well said, pete. I couldn't agree with you more.


The 911 mystique alone is not enough to keep them profitable because that very philosophy is what got them into trouble pre Boxster/Cayenne. By early 90's Porsche was forced to change their game plan. Porsche had to compete with the rest of the world on a broader scale if it was to survive. Many of our "enthusiasts" forget or don't know it was the sharing of the parts, and outsourcing of the Boxster/996 platform that pulled them from a death spiral. What's more is many parts aren't even made in Germany any more. Many parts are farmed out to Italy and final assembly in Finland for some cars. Porsche no longer a cloistered in house family run company. It begs the question how much is a Porsche really a Porsche. Just because you put a badge on it, does not make it so. At least not in the same sense as it's heritage lend us to believe. But I digress...

The 911 "brand" has always enjoyed a loyal following because of it's price point relative to performance. The aficionado's can say what they will about Porsche being a Porsche, but they forget the 928, 914, 912's where commercial flops. It can be argued those flopped for many reasons, but the simple truth is they weren't profitable enough. That goes back to performance, price point, and dependability. A tall order I know. If owners get continually smoked by a Datsun or whatever for half the price, we wouldn't be so enthusiastic about writing that check twice the amount for a slower car. I know I would be a little less happy.
I am quite sure the brass at Porsche know this too, and are working delivering a better 911. They have to. It would be economic suicide not to.

 

Pete you brought up a lot of good points. One that stands out is weight increases. I remember when the 996 platform came out how upset the porsche loyal were. Since I was working at polaris at the time we we're having some of the same problems. Mainly government mandated sound, safety, and emission requirements. They just weren't able to produce a high horsepower aircooled engine that could meet the government sound and performance requirements. Add on the required safety requirements, bumpers, airbags just to start.Then requirements to meet emmisions weight just keeps adding on. At cars and coffee I was admiring on of the last aircooled turbos, it was a car that was just done right, Car's will continue to evolve but remember our government has more control over what we can buy than most performance buyers would like and it's going to get worse. As far as their profitability, if you look at their portfolio I've heard most of their profits come from investments not from manufacturing. Also when I worked with the Japanese engineers one thing that suprised me was the government pays for all their new tooling, to help companies make changes quickly to help compete. Good for the consumer it's turning out to be bad for the long run for the country since they've been taxed hard now so it's difficult for them to compete with other countrys. What it amounts to is I'm sure the GT-R is being sold for a lot less than it costs to produce in an effort to capture market share, it's a short term solution. For this reason I'm sure the long term support will leave a lot to desire, look at the motorcycyle market. Try find parts for a 10 year old sport bike, much less a 20 year old one. I doubt if long term support is built into the plan for the GT-R since to try stay on top they'll just make to many changes. Now go with someone to a Porsche dealer and look for parts for a 20 year old 911. This is getting long winded but I think it's a pleasant change from all the name calling. At least for me.

 

You're a smart man, petevb...

"I want to buy a car for what it does, not what the company that made it used to do. Time for Porsche to get it's act together."

 

One thing you're all forgetting - the emotional factor. Some people will buy the Porsche no matter what as long as its performance is competitive (which it is). They want the brand, look and feel. Porsche will always build cars that are a step ahead of the competition, even if they fall behind occasionally. It's happened for the last 30 years and will continue. Pay $150K for a Nissan? Probably not. As people say, "it's still a Nissan". I hear people saying "it's still a Porsche", but with a different meanng.

 

Who cares, it's a Nissan. It's a great car and has alot of bang for the buck, however, I will not ever own one over my Porsche and anyone who compares them does not deserve to own a 911 IMO.

Christian

 

Buying a car and being happy after it's in the garage and having driven it frequently with the good feelings that the drive produces is what's really important for the people who pick their products. Those who would buy a car based on their numbers and data generated by other drivers will most likely choose the GTR over the Porsche and whether they will be satisfied with their purchase will remain to be seen (owners please submit their report to JDPowers). Like most people have pointed out Porsche is doing something right to be the most profitable car company in the world several years in a row and striving to remain at the 1st spot as long as they can. I personally won't want to own the GTR because it doesn't have the same feel as a Porsche no matter what the price/performance ratio is. For me the 911 or Cayman/Boxster, 914, and other mid/rear engined Porsche has the perfect view (from the driver's seat) out the windshield that the other designs (Corvette, Jag, AM, Nissan Z, GTR, etc.) just don't have. The feel from the steering, ride dynamics, communication and feed back in a Porsche is unique in terms of development and evolution and rarely matched by others (short of Ferrari's). Honed to perfection. Those things will most likely be missing in a GTR.

 

They did get their act together. It's called the 997 GT2.

Tell you what... you get the GT-R, I'll get the GT2 and we'll settle this once and for all in the canyons.

Car is on the boat. Black on black. Now it's your turn to get the GT-R, after all doesn't some ******bag owe you a spot anyway?

By the way, I saw you on "Supercars Exposed." Why didn't you get interviewed? All I saw was that yellow car that the ghetto birds seem to like at TOW. Your car has a very nice camera face.

 

Pete:
From the consumer angle this doesn't help Porsche's case. I should buy a 997tt over a gt-r because Porsche is making more money than nissan? Personally I'd rather support a company that is trying their hardest to bring a competitive car to the market rather than reap loads of profits from the consumer. 50 thousand dollars is quite a gap. Sure porsche doesn't have to worry about the gt-r cutting into their market. They have plenty of die hard p-car enthusiasts that will continue to shell out for a car that isn't worth what they are charging and will continue to excuse it in any way even with a statement as simple as "A porsche is a porsche". I'm not going to lie I would rather drive a 997tt over a gt-r because a 997 is honestly a beautiful car besides it's amazing performance. The fact that they will be making 1/4 as many gt-r's adds a major appeal for me. They will hold their value in the market better, they will offer better performance and will be more rare than the 997. I like what nissan is doing to the market and it seems that it's upsetting more p-car owners than anticipated. I don't think nissan ever expected to p-car enthusiasts to offload their cars for the upcomming gt-r because lets face it. For 997tt performance at 130k? Anyone could build a car that would rip a 997tt apart around a track for less than 40k and get the amazing feeling of building a car that outperforms a car like that by themselves. It's quite gratifying. But I could play devils advocate all day long. I think anyone that choses sides on this point needs a bat to the head. You should all appreciate a new competitive vehicle thats comming to the market. Because honestly who doesn't like good competition? Any GTR owner that gives a 997tt owner garbage for paying 50k over for a car that doesn't perform as well is an idiot. Driving a porsche a symbol that you will never achieve driving a nissan, everyone should know that.

 

Oh man, my eyes are getting watery and my head is starting to spin. This debate is endless and there are no clear winners...

Okay, I am closing my eyes. I am seeing a huge Nissan logo next to an equal size Porsche logo and my first impression is...Okay, I'm up, I am up. let me put some water in my face and I shall continue to read...

I got one! Anyone cares to guess which one, GTR vs. GT3 or GT2 or TT, will hold the value better after 3 or 4 years? Better value = more desirable, no?

 

I dont think some people understand the point here, Nissan is selling the GT-R for as much as they think they can sell and keep them all sold. It's still a Nissan, and if it were to step into the 80k range there would be a lot more competition and it would certainly lose in all around bang for the buck to the Z06. I really think the Z06 is the reason the MSRP is where it is on this car. At least in the states.

And everyone is also forgetting that the GT-R is a cheap imitation of the Porsche and always has been, where do you think the leather wrapped dash came from? AWD Turbo? Who took that to the next level? This is a new platform and time is the true lithmus test, magazines are not. Japan is known for their electronic innovation but even they can out engineer themselves at times. With the Porsche you know what you are getting, the GT-R is a toss up at this point. And even still, the styling is way over the top for the average consumer. Not classy at all, which is a major selling point for Porsche, the 911 is about class,style and speed. So while we can get every Tom, Dick and Harry in here claiming they "WERE" going to buy a TT but now want a GT-R, yet they are coming from other GT-R's or a C2 or something, the fact is that the TT is in a whole different category of price range to begin with so many of these guys were stretching their imagination to talk about getting one in the first place.

A couple lap times, which even though debatable is all the GT-R has over the Porsche and that is so unimportant to overall sales it's unbeleivable. As time progresses more and more people will see the TT walking away from the GT-R in a straight line which is ultimately more important to the majority of consumer. Cost wise, there has always been cheaper performance, there is cheaper luxury and class, but there still isnt a better blend of them all. Fact of the matter is that a few people will defect from different brands and the die hard fanboys will come from wherever, so neither the M3, Z06, TT,GT3,R8,Viper etc etc will see significant sales reduction because of one limited production car.

 

Heavychevy everything you say is so heavily biased its painfull. It sounds like your trying to convice yourself rather. A gt-r isn't anything like a p-car. A p-car is a boxer motor rear engine completely different drive and feel. How can you call it an immitation. never has the gt-r stepped on the toes of the 911 until now and so you call it an immitation? AWD turbo came from the gt-r long before the 911 ever had it. Look back at the first generations of skylines that the us never saw. With Gt-r you are getting a car thats been a racing legend and much anticipated. And just for the record I'd much rather have a inline 6 than a boxer motor any day. It's a perfectly balanced motor. I know its the r34 and before but you really know nothing about nissan and porsche based on your statement. I could write a book to rip apart your entire reply but I'm filling my taxes so I must be going

 

Dont talk about what you can do, speak your piece. The 911 had turbo engines on the 930 in the early 70's, when did the skyline get a turbo engine? Trivia 101.

Who says the car has to be the same configuration to be an imitation? The rear engine is something only Porsche has been able to make work, and many people have tried to imitate it or compete with it in various ways, and yet it's still here. Nissan parading the GT-R around with the TT is only showing that the GT-R didnt have enough national identity to be sold on it's own and needed something to try and make it seem like they could do the same. It's pretty easy from my point of view. Nissan has been intent on the media representation of this vehicle from day 1 and have been hell bent on making sure it came across in the media as more than it is. The car is risky to be going worldwide, they had to.

I'm not trying to convince myself, I already know better, I'm just countering the wave of non sensical ideas of the fanboy invasion we've gotten. Of which I have to assume you are a part of.

 

lol, Fanboy? I have to point out that you are sticking up for a car that costs 50+k more and doesn't perform as well. Risky to go worldwide? I don't see how. Never has a car been so world known in the us for having not even been shipped here. A rear engine porsche is a very difficult car to drive so I'm curious how you define that as success. Designing a car that has this trait is not difficult. Other manufactures just seem to have different standards. It's a similar debate to using traction control on motogp bikes and formula 1 as oposed to not. The porsche line-up is a definitive money making platform. And if you really want to get into immitation you should look at the history of variable turbine geometry. Honda designed and implimented this technology over 2 decades ago until porsche repackaged it, rebranded it, and now it's seen as this amazing new ground breaking technology. Nobody has attempted to immitate Porsche. Not only that but it's using variable valve timming which thinking back came from honda as well. I don't think it's fair to say that nissan has immitated porsche by using turbo as nearly every manufacturer today is using turbo. I don't beleive porsche was the first company to come up with twin turbo either and even further I don't beleive they have ever used a sequential setup which is even more efficient. The first turbo vehicles were developed in the 1930's. How far back would you like to go? The gt-r didn't have enough national identity? Drive around in an r32, r33, r34, r35, gt-r with no badging and I'm sure you will get plenty of recognition. A good freind of mine owns an r32 and everytime he takes it out it's an event. It's so recognized it becomes somewhat of an inconvenience. People will literally flag him off the road to ask him questions about it. It's much more rare yet more recognized. Unfortunately made famous by the most horrible example of the import market "the fast and the furious", most people don't understand why it's so beloved. Several very major components of the p-motor today is derived from honda technology. Honda spends more money on r&d than any other manufacture and most japanese manufacturers have a different agenda than profit margin. It shows in what they bring to the every day consumer.

Even though I did just discredit Porsche I still love the car. It's beautifull and it makes a bold statement. They have a huge footprint in racing history and love that they bring a truely different car to the market. I'd get a 997tt over a gt-r just because I hate sequential transmissions. That and the 997tt is much more attractive but thats just subjective. I'm not argueing with you that the gt-r is a better car. My only point is every car has it's place in the market today and I have love for all of them. With that said I think you sir are the fanboy.

 

A rear engine Porsche is difficult to drive huh?

Care to explain why the 911 is the most produced race car in the world?? Most winningest Chassis in racing? Biggest customer tracking club in the world?

Success is taking said flawed design and making it the largest selling factory race car in the world. And then taking it and wiping the floor with the competition. But maybe we have different definitions of success.



Seems like you are owning yourself to have proclaimed so much knowledge.


I didnt say that Porsche invented the Turbo, and it wasnt Nissan either if my memory serves me correctly. The FACT is that the Skyline got turbos a few years AFTER the 930 TURBO had them.

Porsche has been testing the sequential in the 997 TT long before it came out, they just couldnt get it to work right, and this was widely known. So much for innovation huh?

The skyline has been glorified by the gaming industry and internet, and you likely find a bunch of GT4 boys running around the car. I've seen it happen when one of our forum members brought one to Road Atlanta for the Petit Lemans. So forgive me if I

.

 

These arguments were the same when the Z06 first came out! porsche does NOT need to respond....people will continue to buy porsches because of history, heritage and the overall package. You would have to kill me to get me to trade my GT3 for a GTR, even the Spec-V. Porsche does not need to compete with them to continue to flourish....its just like ferrari does not need to answer the GTR because its quicker than the F430...