PCCB's durability
#16
09-15-2008, 06:53 PM
The Supercup, ie the fast cup car, has used PCCBs since 2005.
"the 911 GT3 Cup built for the Porsche Mobil1 Supercup feature... PCCB Porsche Ceramic Composite Brakes"
http://jalopnik.com/cars/new-cars/20...cup-329154.php
http://www.racecam.de/index.php?site...ang=en&id=1562
Porsche factory test drivers tracked plenty of miles on PCCBs and didn't have issues. They also didn't a) overbrake and overheat the rotors, and b) go off sideways into gravel traps.
Your mileage may vary.
"the 911 GT3 Cup built for the Porsche Mobil1 Supercup feature... PCCB Porsche Ceramic Composite Brakes"
http://jalopnik.com/cars/new-cars/20...cup-329154.php
http://www.racecam.de/index.php?site...ang=en&id=1562
Porsche factory test drivers tracked plenty of miles on PCCBs and didn't have issues. They also didn't a) overbrake and overheat the rotors, and b) go off sideways into gravel traps.
Your mileage may vary.
#17
09-15-2008, 07:02 PM
The Supercup, ie the fast cup car, has used PCCBs since 2005.
"the 911 GT3 Cup built for the Porsche Mobil1 Supercup feature... PCCB Porsche Ceramic Composite Brakes"
http://jalopnik.com/cars/new-cars/20...cup-329154.php
http://www.racecam.de/index.php?site...ang=en&id=1562
Porsche factory test drivers tracked plenty of miles on PCCBs and didn't have issues. They also didn't a) overbrake and overheat the rotors, and b) go off sideways into gravel traps.
Your mileage may vary.
"the 911 GT3 Cup built for the Porsche Mobil1 Supercup feature... PCCB Porsche Ceramic Composite Brakes"
http://jalopnik.com/cars/new-cars/20...cup-329154.php
http://www.racecam.de/index.php?site...ang=en&id=1562
Porsche factory test drivers tracked plenty of miles on PCCBs and didn't have issues. They also didn't a) overbrake and overheat the rotors, and b) go off sideways into gravel traps.
Your mileage may vary.
In the Carrera Cups and in the American IMSA GT3's Cup Challenge in the racing operation the approved system with steel brake discs comes to use.
#18
09-15-2008, 08:54 PM
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wow talk about intense posts
guys there seems to be great debate on this issue there is no neutral answers for sure you guys are really a different group than on the turbo side for sure (this was not a negative comment by the way
)
so can we do a fast poll on how many of you have PCCBs and how many track days have you done before replacing the rotors and how many sets of pads vs rotors replacement ratio
i do really enjoy those ceramics on track because of the feel and complete lack of fading so i am willing to trade off the fact that they don't last longer than steel disc (sorry cast iron) which i got the info from magazines that was suppose to last the life of the car!! but man replace them every year?? with only 12 track days per year(remember DEs have only 4x20 minutes out on track every day only)
by the way do you know how near are they from really replacement from the time those wear indicators show up on the disc surface?(those round marks the size of a nickel)
thanks
guys there seems to be great debate on this issue there is no neutral answers for sure you guys are really a different group than on the turbo side for sure (this was not a negative comment by the way
)so can we do a fast poll on how many of you have PCCBs and how many track days have you done before replacing the rotors and how many sets of pads vs rotors replacement ratio
i do really enjoy those ceramics on track because of the feel and complete lack of fading so i am willing to trade off the fact that they don't last longer than steel disc (sorry cast iron) which i got the info from magazines that was suppose to last the life of the car!! but man replace them every year?? with only 12 track days per year(remember DEs have only 4x20 minutes out on track every day only)
by the way do you know how near are they from really replacement from the time those wear indicators show up on the disc surface?(those round marks the size of a nickel)
thanks
#20
09-15-2008, 09:14 PM
Bottom line- the rotors won't last forever, but keep them cool and don't find gravel traps and they will last many times longer than if you do. There is no doubt they are faster on track, it's more a question of if the cost/ performance ratio is acceptable to you...
I run them, but I'll never get them hot enough to cause most of the issues (light car).
#25
09-15-2008, 10:37 PM
Herein lies most of the issue. On a standard iron rotor car you have feedback that the brakes are hot- they start to fade, you need higher pedal pressure, etc. The ceramics, on the other hand, keep on gripping, but when they are pushed really hard they start to kill themselves in the process. Pros have subconsciously learned how to take care of brakes, and actually brake less than amateurs- pros rotor temps stay lower, but of course it varies from driver to driver there too.
Bottom line- the rotors won't last forever, but keep them cool and don't find gravel traps and they will last many times longer than if you do. There is no doubt they are faster on track, it's more a question of if the cost/ performance ratio is acceptable to you...
I run them, but I'll never get them hot enough to cause most of the issues (light car).
Bottom line- the rotors won't last forever, but keep them cool and don't find gravel traps and they will last many times longer than if you do. There is no doubt they are faster on track, it's more a question of if the cost/ performance ratio is acceptable to you...
I run them, but I'll never get them hot enough to cause most of the issues (light car).
That said, for the track I would go with a steel brake system using Slotted, 2-piece rotors (not the OEM cross drilled), Motul or comparable brake fluid and some carbon-kevlar based pads (such as Porterfield R4's). This will offer fade free braking under virtually any condition, plus this type of pad compound is the most rotor friendly compound available, which prolongs rotor life. Sure you can use a much more aggressive pad like a Peformance Friction 01, but on a light car like the GT3, it's definitely not necessary for the weekend track warrior.
More importantly, with steel units, you have a greater selection of pad compounds giving you more control over your brake bias, or how you prefer your brakes to work for a particular track.
#26
09-15-2008, 11:22 PM
nice backpedal.
i don't see anything specific about PCCB and american cars there.
PCCBs are absolutely made for track use. That, in fact, is the point. They are complete overkill for the street.
The problem is that under hard use, they wear. Which isn't a problem in and of itself, it's just that they are so damn expensive.
With the correct pads and fluid, you can get just as good performance from iron rotors at a fraction of the cost. You just give up the fantastic weight savings, which you really have to be a pro driver to appreciate anyway.
So for most folks, it doesn't make sense to use the PCCB on the track. But that doesn't mean they aren't track-ready.
Hey old fart, PCCBs are not meant for track use. How many times do you have be told that before it sticks in that thick head of yours? Just because you're driving mrs. daisy on the track and your rotors aren't toast doesn't mean PCCBs are bullet proof. Ask ANYONE who's serious about tracking their car. NONE of them will recommend them. If one of them does, smack 'em because they don't know about them.
PCCBs are absolutely made for track use. That, in fact, is the point. They are complete overkill for the street.
The problem is that under hard use, they wear. Which isn't a problem in and of itself, it's just that they are so damn expensive.
With the correct pads and fluid, you can get just as good performance from iron rotors at a fraction of the cost. You just give up the fantastic weight savings, which you really have to be a pro driver to appreciate anyway.
So for most folks, it doesn't make sense to use the PCCB on the track. But that doesn't mean they aren't track-ready.
Last edited by mousecatcher; 09-15-2008 at 11:25 PM.
#27
09-16-2008, 03:51 AM
System ST are sold through Movit.de, you would have to obtain a quote from them as it varies according to whether you retain the existing PCCB 'hat'/ have solid or cross drilled.
My replacements for the Carrera GT were circa. 65-70% of the replacement PCCB's.
#28
09-16-2008, 06:17 PM
Whilst improvements have been made to the PCCB rotors over the various iterations, these discs will not last with prolonged track exposure. I have a 2004 Carrera GT and the PCCB's are showing the early stages of 'carbon burn' or friction surface de-lamination at 17k miles and around 25 track days.
All the PCCB rotors, and in addition the rotors for Ferrari, Bentley, Audi, Aston Martin are manufactured by SGL Carbon in Germany. The rotors in all these cases feature a laminated friction surface that is bonded to the body of the rotor. This friction surface is only around 1.00mm thick, and with prolonged track use it starts to de-laminated from the body of the disc. I've sent detailed images of my rotors to SGL Carbon and they've stated that the wear I have is not unusual for the mileage on track I've done - they even commented the rotors were not designed for the track!
The reason the friction surface is laminated to the rotor body is two fold, cost and manufacturing turn around time. I am having a set of Carbon Ceramic discs produced by System ST in the UK. These rotors are fully carbon ceramic, i.e the whole disc is friction material so the PCCB/SGL Carbon issues of wearing the thin friction surface will not occur. Also the length and orientation of the fibres in the System ST rotor is different which also increases the heat dissipation.
The reality is that whatever peoples expectations of the PCCB/SGL Carbon rotor may be, at some time dependent on use the very thin friction layer will be compromised.
http://www.systemst.com/
All the PCCB rotors, and in addition the rotors for Ferrari, Bentley, Audi, Aston Martin are manufactured by SGL Carbon in Germany. The rotors in all these cases feature a laminated friction surface that is bonded to the body of the rotor. This friction surface is only around 1.00mm thick, and with prolonged track use it starts to de-laminated from the body of the disc. I've sent detailed images of my rotors to SGL Carbon and they've stated that the wear I have is not unusual for the mileage on track I've done - they even commented the rotors were not designed for the track!
The reason the friction surface is laminated to the rotor body is two fold, cost and manufacturing turn around time. I am having a set of Carbon Ceramic discs produced by System ST in the UK. These rotors are fully carbon ceramic, i.e the whole disc is friction material so the PCCB/SGL Carbon issues of wearing the thin friction surface will not occur. Also the length and orientation of the fibres in the System ST rotor is different which also increases the heat dissipation.
The reality is that whatever peoples expectations of the PCCB/SGL Carbon rotor may be, at some time dependent on use the very thin friction layer will be compromised.
http://www.systemst.com/
#29
09-17-2008, 02:45 PM
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Thanks for the great information and source.
with your original post-saying they should never be on the track. Then forgetting the CUP car ARE using PCCBs
The truth is if your going to track several times a month then yes the PCCB rotor is a wear item. How often you use it determines the amount of wear. If you are like most of us who do 10-12 track days a year then they are fine.
#30
09-17-2008, 03:23 PM
I agree with OldGuy. Rotors, iron or ceramic are wear items. If you want to extensively track the car and find the cost of the PCCB rotors out of reach than switch to steel. Here is a place that sells Alcons that are a direct replcement for the PCCB. Very reasonable and a great rotor. It reatins the rear hat so you don't lose your parking brake.
http://www.arlanmotorsport.com/motor...lcon/index.asp
http://www.arlanmotorsport.com/motor...lcon/index.asp