Wow! Jack isn't messin around. He always has impeccable taste.

 

Oak - you changed you avitar and sig - again - what's going on now

 

Hey Darren, It's still the same. Maybe it's just been awhile.

 

Regarding your first point, is this why a stock GT2 runs the 'Ring faster than the Blitz Supra with over 600hp??? When was the last time you saw a race-prepped Supra race a GT2? Are you talking straightline or overall performance?

More to the point, a 360 CS for the same base price as a GT2 is several seconds slower on the Nurburgring and almost any track, despite the fact that the CS has stickier PZero Corsa system as opposed to the Michelin Pilot Sport 1.

There may be faster cars in one category, but for braking, acceleration, handling and overall performance, I think the GT2 is one of the best performing cars this side of a Carrera GT.

The F50 conclusion is based on a client and friend who has one, and the numerous complaints from his mechanic. In the 1 hour that I was there watching him fix the F50, about 2 new problems occurred. Good considering it's a supercar??? WTF does that mean?

I'm glad you are happy with the 360. It is a big improvement over the 355, which was one of my favorite cars. That being said, it is still pretty slow, being only marginally faster than my BMW M5 on a good day. I hope you like the look of my smoked taillights as that is the most common view of the GT2 from the perspective of the 360 driver.

 

How about a Ford GT since I know you still miss your Mustang Cobra!

I still can't believe you of all people actually bought one of those after your first GT2. Wasn't it also a convertible??? All it needed was those gold Daytons and you would have been set.

 

I was trying to illustrate a point I still believe to be true - there is always someone faster. And there is always someone out there perfectly satisfied with their car even if it is not the fastest around any given circuit. My 360 is more fun to drive by several orders of magnitude than any of my many Porsches and BMWs, and since I am not out to try to set lap records when I track the car, I couldn't be happier.

Gary

 

Hey, if anyone has fallen for Tyson's sales pitch re: the GT2, there's a 2002 w/3k miles "asking" $134k. BTW, what does a used Stradale go for - relative to MSRP or otherwise?

I think the resale market for both cars clearly shows that the GT2 may be impressive in "numbers", but the Stradale is what people really want when they seek excitement.

 

My dealership head says they rarely get used GT2s for resale because their owners turn ashen and leave when given the current " trade in " value of their car . He says PCNA's whole pricing structure for new GT2s is a joke - they should be base $150K new at the most .

 

i agree. the GT2s were overpriced for what they were. i think the GT3 is overpriced for what it is. i'm CERTAIN the stradale is overpriced too though!

porsche's greed has gotten them to do a number of things over the last five years or so that they hopefully will come to regret and learn from.

i wouldn't stand too high up on your horse, ben - one could argue that GT2s have been out a lot longer, and they've depreciated. stradales are going to depreciate too - it's just a matter of time.

doody.

 

All Ferraris hold their value better due to their superior marketing strategy and "bling" factor.

That has nothing to do with how good the cars are. Many people I know get out of their GT2's because the cars scare the **** out of them. This is why the resale values are low right now.

But that's ok, when the real enthusiasts pick up the car and realize how great they are, prices will stabilize and perhaps even increase one day.

If not, so what... it's one of the best buy secrets of the decade!

You guys who rag on the GT2 obviously have not had much seat time in one. I used to think the GT2 was way overpriced until I drove one. Then I realized how superior it is to the Turbo.

Ben based on your assessment of the CGT, the Stradale is perfect for you.

I don't see how you guys can necessarily single out the GT2 as being overpriced. You actually think the 996 Turbo is a good value??? Especially with X-50? The GT3 is a damn bargain... but a GT2 is certainly worth more than $150K if that's what an X-50 Turbo retails for.

Let's face it, all Porsches are massively overpriced, but so are Ferraris. If you use overall performance as an indicator, the GT2's price isn't that bad. WIth the market the way it is now, it is truly an unbeatable bargain. Just ask Watt.

 

Both cars may be overpriced, but Porsches are massively overbuilt! The reason Ferraris command premiums or hold their value better than Porsches is because Ferrari is firm with the number of cars it builds each year - 4,000 +/-, whereas Porsche will build as many cars as the market demand. This being the case, Porsche should have ended GT2 production after 2003, but greed seems to rule the day.

 

I have to respectfully disagree that a GT3 is overpriced for what it is. Considering it's not your ordinary Carrera motor or tranny, 50K for those components alone...100K base for that car is an exceptional value imho...Have you ever driven one???

 

Okay, let me say that I've driven my Challenge Stradale at least 600 miles on the track. I have yet to get my "*** handed to me" by any porsche, except for pure-race cars. The CS can hold its own nicely. My lap times are among the fastest for any streetable car.

Big HP numbers don't impress me as much any more. You need light weight and balance - this the CS has.

The GT2 is a great car, but its heavier than a CS - the CS is about 2840 lbs. You can feel the difference. I also track my modded 996TT. The TT has more torque, but it doesn't have the same feel as the CS.

The CS has the sweetest sound! The P-car feels ordinary after driving it. I've owned 5 996s (including 3 turbos) and now a 997S. I love Porsches, and they are better for everyday use, but having a CS for the occasional blast or track day is a lot of fun.

The CS suffers the most, IMO, from lack of traction. The Pirelli PZero Corsa tires are soft, but not particularly sticky in the rear. The width is only 285mm. This has frustrated me when applying throttle while exiting turns. Oversteer is a knife edge away.

As for reliabilty - I have driven mine HARD on the track for hundreds of miles with ZERO problems. I drive it to the track, drive the **** out of it, and then drive home with no issues (other than worn tires).

And one more thing: The F-car is a piece of art. The red-crinkle finish on the engine's intake horn covers, and the carbon-fiber and aluminum pieces are showcased without without any plastic covers. There is so much in this car to show off and admire, like the aluminum body, the carbonfiber door panels and seats, the titanium springs, the HUGE carbon ceramic brakes, all the aero pieces, and the excellent F1 shifter.

If I were to trade the CS for a P-Car, that would have to be a GT3 - it has some of the same traits, such as less weight, and a high-reving NA engine.

 

This reminds me of a true story. Pablo Picasso was eating alone at a restaurant when a lady comes to his table and gushes over his art. He thanks her warmly and the lady is emboldened, asking him to draw a picture. He very quickly sketches a portrait of a passing waiter on a napkin. She absolutely loves it and asks how much for the sketch. He replies $10,000. The lady is shocked and states that it only took him 5 minutes and he very quietly replies "no ma'am, this took me a lifetime".

Folks, you cannot value these machines like vegetables. There is no way we can justify any of them. We love them for what they can do, their engineering, their HISTORY, and the fact that these are manifestations of both a culture(Italy and Germany) and the passion of their founders(Ferrari and Porsche). It took a generation of engineers, racing, and meticulous craftsmanship for these automakers to be able to charge the premiums that they can get.

Folks, great stuff is expensive and most of the time, if you can afford it, they are worth it. You can go back and forth on how something is "worth" but it is a lot more complicated than that. I think we can all agree a Honda Accord and Toyota Camry is worth the price of entry because they perform transportation duties admirably. How do you value a Ferrari or Porsche? The market does that, but how do we ourselves do it? The things that we value in this realm goes way beyond simple transportation and now involves perfomance, sound, styling, racing heritage, current racing results, ego, net worth, impulse, etc. It just isn't that simple.

My problem, is that I love them all, and at the rate I'm going I will probably own them all at some time or another.

 

jmmitias,

Very eloquently put.