Stradales?
#121
09-27-2004, 10:45 AM
Originally posted by Hamann7
Collin, if you want to disagree with me, fine. But, the reason we use times on the Nurburgring and Hockenheim from AMS is because we can isolate the track and driver variables to isolate the max performance capabilities of each car.
Collin, if you want to disagree with me, fine. But, the reason we use times on the Nurburgring and Hockenheim from AMS is because we can isolate the track and driver variables to isolate the max performance capabilities of each car.
There's no disagreement there.
Originally posted by Hamann7
Yes, a Ferrari will always be the more visceral experience and it will be exciting too. This has always been the case. Even a normal 360 is more 'exciting' to drive than almost any 911.
Yes, a Ferrari will always be the more visceral experience and it will be exciting too. This has always been the case. Even a normal 360 is more 'exciting' to drive than almost any 911.
It's the visual, aural, and tactile excitements that draw people to the Ferraris. Porsches are great no nonsense sportcars with tremendous abilities that people respect.
They're both desirable cars for all enthusiasts to enjoy.
Enough said for me on this topic. It's amazing how many times this thread's been viewed. Guess a lot of people just love this kind of "which is the best" debate
Hey, this is my 1000th post! I thought I could stay put at 999
#122
09-27-2004, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by Bill S
I'm sorry I didn't go this year. Next year for sure!
I know you'll be faster in the GT2 for two reasons: (1) the GT2 has more torque; (2) I get scared faster than you. BTW, at Willow Springs, the GT2 and 993 Turbo R are very close.
Do you think I'd be more than 10 seconds behind after a 5-mile run up Palomar? Seems like the cars are within 10 seconds of each other after driving all-out for 14-miles on the Nurburing with the same driver. Not bad for a 100 HP difference.
I'm sorry I didn't go this year. Next year for sure!
I know you'll be faster in the GT2 for two reasons: (1) the GT2 has more torque; (2) I get scared faster than you.
BTW, at Willow Springs, the GT2 and 993 Turbo R are very close.Do you think I'd be more than 10 seconds behind after a 5-mile run up Palomar? Seems like the cars are within 10 seconds of each other after driving all-out for 14-miles on the Nurburing with the same driver. Not bad for a 100 HP difference.
Either way, I'd love to have a fun run with you in any case. We need to get those buffalo burgers and apple pie in Julian again.
I'm planning on visiting a friend in La Jolla sometime next month. Maybe on the way there, I can meet up with you and your wife and we can take a cruise!
#123
09-27-2004, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by ben, lj
I don't know about 10 secs, but any discrepancy would be due only to NA cars losing power at altitude. Palomar is not a high HP "track".
I don't know about 10 secs, but any discrepancy would be due only to NA cars losing power at altitude. Palomar is not a high HP "track".
Ben, the GT2 has 100 more hp and the powerband comes on at lower rpm's, which translates into more torque sooner. This is important for "uphill battles."
As someone who commutes uphill almost daily, I think I have an educated opinion on this subject matter. I'm sure my neighbor Watt would concur.
Uphill, it would not be a fair fight between GT2 and Stradale. The GT3 is probably the better comparo, as they are both high revving engines that require you to rev it to get power out of it.
#124
09-27-2004, 08:59 PM
Originally posted by Hamann7
Are you kidding me???
Ben, the GT2 has 100 more hp and the powerband comes on at lower rpm's, which translates into more torque sooner. This is important for "uphill battles."
Uphill, it would not be a fair fight between GT2 and Stradale. The GT3 is probably the better comparo, as they are both high revving engines that require you to rev it to get power out of it.
Are you kidding me???
Ben, the GT2 has 100 more hp and the powerband comes on at lower rpm's, which translates into more torque sooner. This is important for "uphill battles."
Uphill, it would not be a fair fight between GT2 and Stradale. The GT3 is probably the better comparo, as they are both high revving engines that require you to rev it to get power out of it.
#125
09-27-2004, 09:55 PM
Originally posted by Bill S
Actually, that's where the CS F1 transmission shines. You can up-shift and down-shift in about 1/10-seconds even during the sharpest turns. With that, the CS is nearly always in it's power band with very fast throttle response. So, if the CS and GT2 are running where a lot of shifting is required, they could be close. Up Palomar, I think you might find yourself going pretty fast in the CS. Maybe we can try a few things while you're here.
Actually, that's where the CS F1 transmission shines. You can up-shift and down-shift in about 1/10-seconds even during the sharpest turns. With that, the CS is nearly always in it's power band with very fast throttle response. So, if the CS and GT2 are running where a lot of shifting is required, they could be close. Up Palomar, I think you might find yourself going pretty fast in the CS. Maybe we can try a few things while you're here.
#126
09-28-2004, 03:16 PM
Wow. What a thread. Great pics. Some of you may want to check this test drive. Some great driving. Clarkson fans will love it.
I won't post their times with the same driver on the same track for those that want to watch in suspense...
Porsche GT3 RS VS Ferarri 360 CS vid, 12 min (56k bring a lunch) Jeremy Clarkson
http://www.sleepy-fish.com/sleepy/T...vs_360CS_hi.wmv
I won't post their times with the same driver on the same track for those that want to watch in suspense...
Porsche GT3 RS VS Ferarri 360 CS vid, 12 min (56k bring a lunch) Jeremy Clarkson
http://www.sleepy-fish.com/sleepy/T...vs_360CS_hi.wmv
#127
09-28-2004, 10:08 PM
For those that can't download:
Mercedes SLK: 1:20.9
360 CS: 1:22.3
GT3 RS: 1.22.3
Murcielago: 1:23.7
Zonda: 1:23.8
Keep in mind, any track test with the same driver would need 10 or more drives in each car to get an average comparison. One drive doesn't mean anything.
Mercedes SLK: 1:20.9
360 CS: 1:22.3
GT3 RS: 1.22.3
Murcielago: 1:23.7
Zonda: 1:23.8
Keep in mind, any track test with the same driver would need 10 or more drives in each car to get an average comparison. One drive doesn't mean anything.
#128
09-28-2004, 10:17 PM
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Originally posted by Hamann7
Are you kidding me???
Ben, the GT2 has 100 more hp and the powerband comes on at lower rpm's, which translates into more torque sooner. This is important for "uphill battles."
As someone who commutes uphill almost daily, I think I have an educated opinion on this subject matter. I'm sure my neighbor Watt would concur.
Uphill, it would not be a fair fight between GT2 and Stradale. The GT3 is probably the better comparo, as they are both high revving engines that require you to rev it to get power out of it.
Are you kidding me???
Ben, the GT2 has 100 more hp and the powerband comes on at lower rpm's, which translates into more torque sooner. This is important for "uphill battles."
As someone who commutes uphill almost daily, I think I have an educated opinion on this subject matter. I'm sure my neighbor Watt would concur.
Uphill, it would not be a fair fight between GT2 and Stradale. The GT3 is probably the better comparo, as they are both high revving engines that require you to rev it to get power out of it.
2] i was interested to see that i could stay with Koby [racing instructor] driving tyson's 2 at buttonwillow yesterday until he started to take chances..... stunning considering the power diff. mind you, the acceleration of a 2 from the rear is .... wow!!!
3] you can go sideways under power in a CS in 1st and 2nd!! just press accelerator quickly above 6500!!! just like a gt2!!!
Last edited by watt; 09-28-2004 at 10:27 PM.
#129
09-28-2004, 10:49 PM
In my experience, on a track, horsepower doesn't really matter as much as suspension, handling, and driver skill. The corners are where the racing is won. Extra HP just makes it easier to fix the mistakes you made in a corner.
#130
09-29-2004, 05:13 AM
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Originally posted by Bill S
I've owned Porsche and Ruf turbos for over 20 years and never liked Ferrari. The performance, quality and reliability were never there. However, after riding in a Stradale for less than 30 minutes, I decided to buy it. I've now driven it over 500 miles on all types of roads. Here's what I can say about it:
1. The acceleration is good. It's about the same as a stock 996 TT, and stays well with a 2000 Viper.
2. On a freeway or other straight road, a Ruf or modified TT will pull you by 5-8 cars lengths by 150 MPH, assuming you're both starting at the same time.
However, that's where the "disadvantages" end. Here's what else:
1. The instantaneous throttle response and ability to up-shift and down-shift in under 150 ms more than makes up for the acceleration. On a curvy mountain road, there's no way in hell a stock turbo car will stay with you. On the CS, you're always in the right gear with no turbo lag. The Turbo owner will kill himself trying to stay with you. The F1 transmission is a no-brainer and clearly superior to a manual.
2. The straight-line stability of the car is MUCH better than any 993 or 996. It's straight as an arrow with no wandering, even at 150 MPH+ on less than perfect roads. This is a VERY noticeable difference, and an obvious nod to Ferrari's F1 engineers working on the car's aerodynamics, which you clearly see looking under the car from the rear. The car just sucks down to the road.
3. The car's engineering and quality are impeccable. The engine revs incredibly fast to 8500 with a scream that will make most people quickly pull-over when you're coming.
4. The car has the Enzo brakes. No fade at all (I tried very hard).
5. The road view out the front is incredible. You don't see the hood; you feel like your flying on the road without a car!
6. The suspension is very tight, but also incredibly compliant over bumpy roads. There's virtually no body lean. The car feels lighter and tighter than any 993 or 996 I've driven.
7. For those that like titanium, it's all over the car. From the connecting rods to the suspension springs. The latter I believe is a first in a production car.
8. The car is incredibly fun to drive. I think it's the extremely fast throttle, shifting, braking and steering response. It feels like the car is part of your body. I always thought the best sports car was an "invisible" car that did everything you wanted instantantly. The CS is like that.
And for the "younger" guys, when you pass some cute girls, they'll watch you go by with a smile, until you're out of site. It happens every time.
Several Enzo owners have stated they like their CS better on the road. The Enzo is big, low and attracts way too much attention (almost to the point of being dangerous). Also, maybe because of it's size, it's difficult to enjoy the Enzo at less than 100 MPH. The CS is very enjoyable at slower speeds.
To balance this out, here's some more "minor" CS disadvantages:
1. You will not enjoy parking the car where you usually park your Turbo. Too many people gather around the car. For me, it attracts too much attention. Even more than a Viper.
2. The car has no insulation, so you'll often hear rocks hitting against the underside.
3. The front-end will scrape badly if you enter a dip at high speed. The scrape can even get into the colored paint. Skid plates should be added soon after purchase.
4. The front bumper gets many rock chips. A bra or clear bra is needed. SpeedLingerie does not have one yet.
When I asked my wife what she doesn't like about the car, she said "nothing comes to mind".
I've owned Porsche and Ruf turbos for over 20 years and never liked Ferrari. The performance, quality and reliability were never there. However, after riding in a Stradale for less than 30 minutes, I decided to buy it. I've now driven it over 500 miles on all types of roads. Here's what I can say about it:
1. The acceleration is good. It's about the same as a stock 996 TT, and stays well with a 2000 Viper.
2. On a freeway or other straight road, a Ruf or modified TT will pull you by 5-8 cars lengths by 150 MPH, assuming you're both starting at the same time.
However, that's where the "disadvantages" end. Here's what else:
1. The instantaneous throttle response and ability to up-shift and down-shift in under 150 ms more than makes up for the acceleration. On a curvy mountain road, there's no way in hell a stock turbo car will stay with you. On the CS, you're always in the right gear with no turbo lag. The Turbo owner will kill himself trying to stay with you. The F1 transmission is a no-brainer and clearly superior to a manual.
2. The straight-line stability of the car is MUCH better than any 993 or 996. It's straight as an arrow with no wandering, even at 150 MPH+ on less than perfect roads. This is a VERY noticeable difference, and an obvious nod to Ferrari's F1 engineers working on the car's aerodynamics, which you clearly see looking under the car from the rear. The car just sucks down to the road.
3. The car's engineering and quality are impeccable. The engine revs incredibly fast to 8500 with a scream that will make most people quickly pull-over when you're coming.
4. The car has the Enzo brakes. No fade at all (I tried very hard).
5. The road view out the front is incredible. You don't see the hood; you feel like your flying on the road without a car!
6. The suspension is very tight, but also incredibly compliant over bumpy roads. There's virtually no body lean. The car feels lighter and tighter than any 993 or 996 I've driven.
7. For those that like titanium, it's all over the car. From the connecting rods to the suspension springs. The latter I believe is a first in a production car.
8. The car is incredibly fun to drive. I think it's the extremely fast throttle, shifting, braking and steering response. It feels like the car is part of your body. I always thought the best sports car was an "invisible" car that did everything you wanted instantantly. The CS is like that.
And for the "younger" guys, when you pass some cute girls, they'll watch you go by with a smile, until you're out of site. It happens every time.
Several Enzo owners have stated they like their CS better on the road. The Enzo is big, low and attracts way too much attention (almost to the point of being dangerous). Also, maybe because of it's size, it's difficult to enjoy the Enzo at less than 100 MPH. The CS is very enjoyable at slower speeds.
To balance this out, here's some more "minor" CS disadvantages:
1. You will not enjoy parking the car where you usually park your Turbo. Too many people gather around the car. For me, it attracts too much attention. Even more than a Viper.
2. The car has no insulation, so you'll often hear rocks hitting against the underside.
3. The front-end will scrape badly if you enter a dip at high speed. The scrape can even get into the colored paint. Skid plates should be added soon after purchase.
4. The front bumper gets many rock chips. A bra or clear bra is needed. SpeedLingerie does not have one yet.
When I asked my wife what she doesn't like about the car, she said "nothing comes to mind".
i have a rattle, probably a stone dingling around with no insulation to hide it... occasionally the car is too stiff and loud... but then you just take it out of race mode!
#132
09-29-2004, 11:09 PM
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Originally posted by Doody
take it out of race mode? BLASPHEMY!
doody.
take it out of race mode? BLASPHEMY!
doody.
try the 405 freeway with high frequency bumps 4 feet apart and the car uh-uh-uh- up & down. maybe storrow drive will help you get it....
otherwise you're right, race mode 24/7 except the 405!
#133
09-30-2004, 07:08 AM
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Interesting how in the Top gear video comparo with the RS and the CS... with lesser of a driver, one can still overtake the CS at will...CS still wins in the sex appeal category... The GT3/RS choice of journomen worldwide!!! :-)
#134
09-30-2004, 07:34 AM
Originally posted by rockitman
Interesting how in the Top gear video comparo with the RS and the CS... with lesser of a driver, one can still overtake the CS at will...CS still wins in the sex appeal category... The GT3/RS choice of journomen worldwide!!! :-)
Interesting how in the Top gear video comparo with the RS and the CS... with lesser of a driver, one can still overtake the CS at will...CS still wins in the sex appeal category... The GT3/RS choice of journomen worldwide!!! :-)
The video does show that the CS and the GT3-RS (!) had the same lap times with the same driver on the same track. It also shows the CS out-accelerating the GT3-RS (!) as speed increases. Of course there's human variables here also. However, even with those variables considered, it doesn't appear that the GT3-RS blows away the CS.
#135
09-30-2004, 07:41 AM
Sorry Chris -- you can "magazine" race the GT3 and CS all day long and look at "objective" numbers that favor the GT3 variants; but in the end, the CS is so much more fun/exciting/thrilling to DRIVE , there's no comparison. Of course, that's my unbiased opinion based upon owning and driving both of them.
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