+1. Exactly. There is nothing wrong with JDM tuning. It's just a difference in culture. Both are equally rooted and driven by passion.

 

Thanks Michaeldorian, I appreciate a little respect here, nice to see someone that doesn't insult me just because I don't own a European car or take it to the track ever other weekend.

I hate "ricer" cars personally. To me they are a joke. Not everybody that has a Japanese car is a dumb punk like the sterotypical jokes in the Fast and Furious movies. Some (like me) have stock looking cars with very tasteful modifications to it, such as suspension and power tweaks, and actually know a little bit about cars.

I used to have a car where I would run a laptop on it and tune the ECU myself, to tweak it. I think that is pretty advanced stuff myself.

 

Could you be more specific? Which assertions are incorrect? The car has no air-con - fact. The cars were tested in a magazine and the ACR had measured ride vibrations twice as bad as cars like the 911, R8 and GTR. The car has been taken to Bonneville and it would be a laughing stock on an Autobahn. 165mph unless you tweak the suspension. Even a stock Evo would give it a run for its money on an Autobahn. That's why it doesn't get out of 4th at the 'ring even on the main straight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTBJ3bfsIeQ

If you're willing to suffer those kinds of compromises, there are far faster and cheaper track cars to be had.

 

I'll repeat you the other portion of my post that may be you don't remember:

"Don't get me wrong, you have the right to love the car you want, but you shouldn't argue with people that know things FROM EXPERIENCE and not from reading magazines... don't you know that these articles are paid advertising ? The ads from the car builders (Porsche included) in those magazines represent a large share of their income. You have the right to believe in them, but the day you can afford your dream car (most of us dreamed a long time before to have one), if you spend enough time on tracks to learn what is your car dynamics, then you will have a bit more credibility."

Sorry but I don't see anything snobby in there... actually I wish you to get your dream car one day, no matter what it is ! And to be able to talk FROM EXPERIENCE and not from reading magazines. I don't think I ever mentioned that if you don't own an expensive car you can't talk here...

May be I am wrong, but I tough this tread was about tracking abilities of different cars. If you have more seat time in front of your computer than in a car on a track, you shouldn't be that insulted when someone bring you back to the real world.

 

GT3techno, you're not understanding the point I made let me requote:

That is the statement I take offense to. Even michaeldorian took your expression and understood it the same way I did. Talking down to Japanese car owners and catagorizing them all as "fast and furious crowd." That is what is insulting, don't you think? When did I come in here expressing that I was more experienced on the track than you? I've said over and over, while I might not have the track experience you have (how much do you track your car, btw, just curious) it's not like I haven't experienced anything with cars. I've built musclecars, set up my Supra for the track and taken it several times, and have owned all manner of car types through my life. The computer tuning was not sitting in front of a computer at my desk. It was at tracks and drag strips (with my 87 Buick Grand National) running a laptop and fine tuning air to fuel ratios, o2 sensor readings, knock sensor information, etc.

I don't have the kind of money to afford something such as your GT3, which I told you that I admire that car.

I do read lots of various magazines. You can't seriously believe that everything you read in a car magazine is political in nature or just for advertising dollars? I don't doubt that some of it is. That's the nature of today's society.

So you spend more time on a track than in front of your computer? Really? Are you a race car driver? I don't think that just because I can't afford to track a GT3 like you can, makes me INEXPERIENCED with cars or tracking them.

Besides tracking your GT3, please, tell me about your car experience? Have you ever torn down engines, transmissions, suspensions, exhaust, and completely built a car from the ground up covered in transmission fluid, oils, really got your hands dirty and done it yourself, or do you pay someone to do it for you?

You might have more TRACK experience with cars, or claiming to have more seat time, but I've been there too, testing the limits of my suspension set up, finding the right lines, ect, so please don't tell me that I don't have any track experience.. I have plenty of EXPERIENCE in a variety of things regarding cars. I never came here claiming that the GT3 stinks at the track or anything such as that, in fact, from what I read, the GT3 has dynamics that the GTR doesn't, and I'd love to take one for a drive to experinece that myself.

Have you ever even driven a GTR or tracked one, or have you just READ about them?

I could sit here and make the statement that I'd bet most of Porsche owners have never really gotten their hands dirty doing the kind of mechanical work that I have done on cars in the past, but that would be sterotyping the Porsche group, kind of like you did to me when I mentioned that my cars were an 87 Supra Turbo and a Mazdaspeed 3.

 

It's not my cup of tea but as far as street legal factory cars you can buy today,
nothing is faster on the track than the ACR. I believe that was heavychevy's point.

A/C is optional. If you order the "hardcore" package, it gets deleted. A standard ACR has it. Proof:

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...omparison_test

As far as top speed, see, there's this big wing in back that generates a thing called "downforce". Comes in handy on the track. Running 200mph on the Autobahn isn't this car's mission in life.

[Edit: Add] The harsh suspension is also a necessary "evil" in oder to offset the downforce the wing generates. Again, not my cup of tea, but you can't deny the car's track prowess.

 

The ACR has tradeoffs huh, well no kidding...its always been a no compromises sort of car. And ACR stands for American Club " Racer " do you expect it to ride like a Cadillac? FACT, the ACR is a production car and as it sits will lap alot faster and without beating up the transmission, diffs, tires and brakes like the GTR does with continued track use.

I remember when the C5 first came out and then the C5 Z06, the Import and Euro community were very harsh on this car. But instead of posting BS " Ring " times GM made sure nothing was posted about the car that it wouldn't do. And now the C5 Z06 is a very well respected track car, and that conclusion was came to by the car putting its money where its mouth is.

What the GTR is is a jack of all trades but a master of none. If you are willing to put up with the tradeoffs not many cars if any will give you the blend of punch off the line and on the street idiot proof A to B handling.

That being said if your a drag racing person, the GTR is an incredibly expensive way to run mid 11's. If you want a dedicated track car those that have Colin Chapman in the blood know that 3900 lbs of AWD weight isn't car you want for extended lapping! If your looking for the penultimate GT car, then a warranty voided while your sleeping and its harsh ride and NVH issues won't make it a perfect choice for that either.

 

Dear Doom4420,

So you are not a kid... guess what ? You are still the type a guy that will pump up the engine to get more horse power so you can pass your friends on a straight line. Tell me where I made a reference to Japanese cars, where did I said that the GT3 was the best and only track car, where I said that if you can't track an expensive car you can't talk about tracking abilities... I think that you are a paranoiac my friend ! The point is: is the GTR the right tool to race or do serious lapping on a track and be fast ? The answer is no. Period. If you can't understand that by now with all the responses to your unsupported posts on this tread, you probably won't understand it ever. Enough time spent with you.

p.s. I track my car more than 30 days (7 sessions of 25 minutes each day) a year. I also race in Formula 125 karts (Rotax CRG DD2). See videos hereunder (next time I lap with a GTR in front of me, I'll show you how bad the car is for an inexperienced driver...) ;-)

http://web.me.com/belzile/ABTECHNO/B...Tremblant.html

http://web.me.com/belzile/ABTECHNO/B..._600_HP_!.html

http://web.me.com/belzile/ABTECHNO/B...nt_en_Mai.html

http://web.me.com/belzile/ABTECHNO/K..._mai_2009.html

 

"The type of guy?" What the hell does that mean? Oh, yes, I get it now, it's a subtle insult. Yeah, that's what drag racing is about, passing people in a straight line. That is the purpose of that KIND of racing and no, I'm not a "street racer." But I'm sure you believe there is no tecnique or skill to drag racing and anyone that participates in that kind of racing must be rednecks.

I think anyone here is smart enough to get your angle there.

I never quoted you as saying the GT3 is the best and only track car.


I was explaining my experience with cars, since you said the above.

I already asked this question. Have you ever tracked a GTR? If not, you are commenting on this subject (GTR's track ablilites) with no EXPERIENCE also. You might be an authority on the tack abilities of the GT3, but not the GTR.

Regardless, we can go back and forth with this, but it comes down to this. I saw this initial post here about the GTR posting Nurburging times that Porsche owners said were nothing but lies by Nissan, so I contributed my view on it.

Then of course, I'm a noob, an a "fast and furious" individual, as quoted by you. Insulting to say the least. I never went that direction toward any of you until I started being accused of being INEXPERIENCED.

I've come here and praised the GT3, but no one has even acknowledged that portion of my posts either.

I've read on various other car forums (no, not GTR forums) that Porsche owners are some of the most snobby, pompous individuals out there. Congratulations, you have proved their point to be correct. If there ever came a time for me to be able to afford a car such as the GT3, it was near the top of my list. Now that I've experienced the kind of individuals that own them, I doubt I would be interested when that day comes. I'm happy for you that you can sit back and feel good that you are superior in knowledge to simpletons like me that are inexperienced compared to your track skills.

I'm not poor, but I don't have the disposable income to do what you are doing with your car, or I probably would be doing the same also, as I would love to be able to buy such a car as yours and track it as often.

As this post has progressed, it has went from debate on GTR vs GT3 track times on the Nurburgring to more than one here basically telling me that I'm misinformed and inexperienced.

In the end, it goes both ways, enough time spent with individuals like you. Money doesn't buy courtesy.

 

Why do you like the GT3 ? Because of pictures and reviews saw in magazines ? How can you tell that the GTR or the GT3 are good track cars ?

I never said that you were inexperienced in cars IN GENERAL, just said that you shouldn't comment on track abilities if it is not your kind of stuff. What is the purpose of all those responses to people trying to help you figure out that you are off subject ?

Cool down and just answer to 1 simple question: Is the GTR a good car for someone who wants to seriously track his car ? If your answer is still yes, OK fine, you won my friend. Have fun and see you at the track !

 

Remember, earlier in this long thread, I said that I have driven a 911 Carerra? Feedback from that car was second to none, I can only imagine what it is like in a GT3. Also, it is from what I've read. Lest you think that I follow drek such as Car and Driver or Road and track, I read every European magazine that I can get my hands on regarding both cars. Just picked up a Porsche magazine yesterday with quite a long summary on the 997 GT3 mk1. Most european car magazines are not interested in 0-60 times or quarter mile times or skidpad times. I'm smart enough to understand this has nothing to do with how good a car is to drive.

Yes, my experience with cars is pretty broad. Yes, I don't have the on track experience that you have, but it's not as if I have taken my cars and tracked them 1 time either, I was trying to point that out in addition to experience I've had in other areas, such as car building and drag strip.

That, I couldn't answer you right now. I don't think many can. The GTR has not been around long enough, IMO, to come to a definitive conclusion on that subject. It also depends on your definition of a good track car. (I.E. how often, how long a session, etc.) You had spoken about the GTR cooking its brakes when someone inexperienced was in front of you.

I read through one of your posts that was regarding the PCCB discs and stock pads that can be optioned on the GT3. It indicated that the stock pads fried the PCCB discs and that the Porsche dealers did not know about this and didn't inform buyers that were optioning these discs the issues regarding them. Isn't that similiar to the GTR?

There aren't many, if any stock cars that you can just buy off the showroom floor and track as often and as long as you do, including the GT3, without a litte prep regarding brakes, tires, etc, or am I incorrect in that assessment?

 

While he was full throttle ! The point is that the car is driving, not the pilot.

Obsolutely not. I should have ordered the car with the steel rotors. A good example that even Porsche can do marketing scams. PCCB are not well suited for the track unless you use the track specified pads. I would have preferred to learn it from the dealer instead of cooking my rotors.

The GT3 can be used bare stock on the track. As for the VIPER ACR. Obviously if you are getting serious about it, you will need adjustments (alignment for example). No need to touch the engine. I can follow cars that have 50% more horse power with no problem.

 

Ok, well, to be fair, he would have had stability control on, in which case the car was braking on it's own.

Understood.

The GT3 can handle the type of track use that you do (didn't you say something like 7 25 minute outings in a day) without tire/brake prep?

I still wonder, have you ever tracked a GTR??

Look, I'm not here to be nasty or anything, but calling me part of the fast and furious crowd is the type of thing that will set me off. I personally feel that that was very insulting. I'm always willing to have civil discussion about cars, including your GT3. I will be watching your videos later, but have a yard to mow.

Ok, I watched your first video. I'm good enough to admit, very good driving. Plus, nice touch on the George Thorogood....

 

I saw my 1st GTR on the road yesterday at a stop sign coming the other way. I thought to myself "ugh another slammed Hondah with a bodykit" then saw the rest of the car.

 

I track weekly. Ive easily taken many GT3's on those laps. Ive driven many GT3's at the track too, and I have to say that the GTR laps faster. The GT2 though.. is one crazy ****. My favorite though is 996GT3rs