GT3 videos - this driver scares me
#31
02-08-2005 | 05:57 AM
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Originally posted by royaltouchtt
for those of you who think this guy jerks the wheel too much, a gt3 is a handfull. This guy in my opinion is a awesome driver.
for those of you who think this guy jerks the wheel too much, a gt3 is a handfull. This guy in my opinion is a awesome driver.
#32
02-08-2005 | 06:17 AM
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Originally posted by PMac
This has been getting a lot of discussion lately. Sawing versus smoothness. Here's the short version. Ordinarily, when we're driving at speed, we're trying to be as smooth as possible. In the ideal corner, you move the steering wheel to the angle you need to make the turn, hold it all the way round, then release gently to 12 o'clock as you apply power equally gently.
Nice theory.
As you get to the raggedy edge of the friction circle, minute changes in slip angle as the car moves slightly on its suspension (changing the instantaneous max. force that tire is capable of), the track surface not being 100% uniform, and a bunch ov other small factors occur, necessitating small corrections. For most of us, we notice the slide later, and have to correct more aggressively, losing time. The best of the best catch the car several times per corner, and are faster.
This is the explanation I've heard, but it seems to me that something else is going on. We've probably all seen the trace of Schumacher's steering inputs vs Johnny Herberts, and how S saws, and H is much smoother. What I notice though, is that S appeared to be sawing somewhat rhythmically, seemingly intentionally. It seemed proactive, rather than reactive.
Anyone more knowledgable have a definitive answer?
This has been getting a lot of discussion lately. Sawing versus smoothness. Here's the short version. Ordinarily, when we're driving at speed, we're trying to be as smooth as possible. In the ideal corner, you move the steering wheel to the angle you need to make the turn, hold it all the way round, then release gently to 12 o'clock as you apply power equally gently.
Nice theory.
As you get to the raggedy edge of the friction circle, minute changes in slip angle as the car moves slightly on its suspension (changing the instantaneous max. force that tire is capable of), the track surface not being 100% uniform, and a bunch ov other small factors occur, necessitating small corrections. For most of us, we notice the slide later, and have to correct more aggressively, losing time. The best of the best catch the car several times per corner, and are faster.
This is the explanation I've heard, but it seems to me that something else is going on. We've probably all seen the trace of Schumacher's steering inputs vs Johnny Herberts, and how S saws, and H is much smoother. What I notice though, is that S appeared to be sawing somewhat rhythmically, seemingly intentionally. It seemed proactive, rather than reactive.
Anyone more knowledgable have a definitive answer?
#34
02-08-2005 | 05:48 PM
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Still wrong. It's improper technique. Just like trial braking a mid/rear engine car. Try doing that with a mid engine racecar. If you don't spin it, you'll be slower without a doubt. You guys make me laugh though. There is a reason that EVERY driving school teaches the technique of being smooth with ALL inputs first and letting speed progress. And no I don't have 4 wheel drive and don't use traction control when I drive, just LSD.
Believe whatever you want and feel better that you think you're improper technque is the best- for you.
I was going to stay out of it but you guys are so off it's a joke.
Believe whatever you want and feel better that you think you're improper technque is the best- for you.
I was going to stay out of it but you guys are so off it's a joke.
#35
02-09-2005 | 05:41 AM
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Originally posted by spr
Still wrong. It's improper technique. Just like trial braking a mid/rear engine car. Try doing that with a mid engine racecar. If you don't spin it, you'll be slower without a doubt. You guys make me laugh though. There is a reason that EVERY driving school teaches the technique of being smooth with ALL inputs first and letting speed progress. And no I don't have 4 wheel drive and don't use traction control when I drive, just LSD.
Believe whatever you want and feel better that you think you're improper technque is the best- for you.
I was going to stay out of it but you guys are so off it's a joke.
Still wrong. It's improper technique. Just like trial braking a mid/rear engine car. Try doing that with a mid engine racecar. If you don't spin it, you'll be slower without a doubt. You guys make me laugh though. There is a reason that EVERY driving school teaches the technique of being smooth with ALL inputs first and letting speed progress. And no I don't have 4 wheel drive and don't use traction control when I drive, just LSD.
Believe whatever you want and feel better that you think you're improper technque is the best- for you.
I was going to stay out of it but you guys are so off it's a joke.
#36
02-09-2005 | 05:42 AM
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Originally posted by DCLEE
Great videos!
I noticed that he changed to a Cup steering wheel toward the end.
Wonder what kind of exhaust he was running-- any guesses?
Lee in D.C.
Great videos!
I noticed that he changed to a Cup steering wheel toward the end.
Wonder what kind of exhaust he was running-- any guesses?
Lee in D.C.
#37
02-11-2005 | 09:03 AM
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Originally posted by spr
Still wrong. It's improper technique. Just like trial braking a mid/rear engine car. Try doing that with a mid engine racecar. If you don't spin it, you'll be slower without a doubt. You guys make me laugh though. There is a reason that EVERY driving school teaches the technique of being smooth with ALL inputs first and letting speed progress. And no I don't have 4 wheel drive and don't use traction control when I drive, just LSD.
Believe whatever you want and feel better that you think you're improper technque is the best- for you.
I was going to stay out of it but you guys are so off it's a joke.
Still wrong. It's improper technique. Just like trial braking a mid/rear engine car. Try doing that with a mid engine racecar. If you don't spin it, you'll be slower without a doubt. You guys make me laugh though. There is a reason that EVERY driving school teaches the technique of being smooth with ALL inputs first and letting speed progress. And no I don't have 4 wheel drive and don't use traction control when I drive, just LSD.
Believe whatever you want and feel better that you think you're improper technque is the best- for you.
I was going to stay out of it but you guys are so off it's a joke.
#38
02-11-2005 | 11:14 AM
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I don't know what you guys are arguing about, in the Varano video the driver is simply having some drifting fun in the rain; the so called "sawing" actions you're seeing is him playing with the car. Of course that's not the fastest way around a dry track, but in the wet it's the most fun and not as slow. In the dry at Nurburgring, notice how smooth his hands are there.
#39
02-11-2005 | 11:24 AM
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I am only going on everything I have learned by read as many driving books as possible, going to a handful of racing schools, and my experiences driving a professional prepped race car for season in SCCA.
Most people simply use improper technique and because they can pull the "sideways" factor and recover they believe they're at the limit, when in reality they're going slower each and every time. Road cars are setup much more "docile" to balance such improper driving. A professional setup car mid engine is a handful to drive, if you are not smooth, and you will loose it in a hurry and not be able to recover given it's characteristics.
When I discuss sawing I do mean in an overall fashion. Sure here and there a mistake in line will occur and some correction is needed.
A great example is Tiff. When you see him on 5th gear, you will undoubtedly see him sawing like crazy. He is doing that for sensationalism to kick the **** around.. When you actually see him trying to pull a great lap, or serious comparisons between cars, driving them at the limit, he is very smooth with little great corrections.
By doing huge midcorner correction you increase weight transfer and make the car unsettled and loose adhesion. You do not increase contact patch or slip angle, you unsettle it basically doing the same result as bumpsteer would do- changing the direction midcorner making the car unsettled and unbalanced.
Slip angle is great and desireable but that is with a proper loading of the suspension and judicial application of power through the apex- NO trial braking. Does Shoemaker trail brake? NO WAY in a mid engine car unless he is screwing around - sensationalism
The whole point is that I am reiterating everything known and imparted by reading any decent book or any acredited driving school. Anything else told about oh, trail braking is the only way to make the car turn in better. If the car was front engine, I would say that's fine and works well, otherwise you are loosing speed and your exit speed will prove it. The proper technique is straight line braking, looking toward the apex, pointing the car through there, looking through the apex to the exit while putting down the power through the apex. Again, this is for a mid engine car, but is applicable to the rear engine car. With a porsche you can get away with all sorts of error as it is setup to "not be a doctor killer anymore"
Enough said.
I didn't want to be a flame starter, I am only here to help and learn myself. It just bugs hearing wrong things especially with the possibility that someone will internalize it and profess something is right when it's clearly not.
otherwise I always enjoy the boards thanks for the fun
Most people simply use improper technique and because they can pull the "sideways" factor and recover they believe they're at the limit, when in reality they're going slower each and every time. Road cars are setup much more "docile" to balance such improper driving. A professional setup car mid engine is a handful to drive, if you are not smooth, and you will loose it in a hurry and not be able to recover given it's characteristics.
When I discuss sawing I do mean in an overall fashion. Sure here and there a mistake in line will occur and some correction is needed.
A great example is Tiff. When you see him on 5th gear, you will undoubtedly see him sawing like crazy. He is doing that for sensationalism to kick the **** around.. When you actually see him trying to pull a great lap, or serious comparisons between cars, driving them at the limit, he is very smooth with little great corrections.
By doing huge midcorner correction you increase weight transfer and make the car unsettled and loose adhesion. You do not increase contact patch or slip angle, you unsettle it basically doing the same result as bumpsteer would do- changing the direction midcorner making the car unsettled and unbalanced.
Slip angle is great and desireable but that is with a proper loading of the suspension and judicial application of power through the apex- NO trial braking. Does Shoemaker trail brake? NO WAY in a mid engine car unless he is screwing around - sensationalism
The whole point is that I am reiterating everything known and imparted by reading any decent book or any acredited driving school. Anything else told about oh, trail braking is the only way to make the car turn in better. If the car was front engine, I would say that's fine and works well, otherwise you are loosing speed and your exit speed will prove it. The proper technique is straight line braking, looking toward the apex, pointing the car through there, looking through the apex to the exit while putting down the power through the apex. Again, this is for a mid engine car, but is applicable to the rear engine car. With a porsche you can get away with all sorts of error as it is setup to "not be a doctor killer anymore"
Enough said.
I didn't want to be a flame starter, I am only here to help and learn myself. It just bugs hearing wrong things especially with the possibility that someone will internalize it and profess something is right when it's clearly not.
otherwise I always enjoy the boards thanks for the fun
#41
02-11-2005 | 11:39 AM
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Originally posted by spr
I am only going on everything I have learned by read as many driving books as possible, going to a handful of racing schools, and my experiences driving a professional prepped race car for season in SCCA.
Most people simply use improper technique and because they can pull the "sideways" factor and recover they believe they're at the limit, when in reality they're going slower each and every time. Road cars are setup much more "docile" to balance such improper driving. A professional setup car mid engine is a handful to drive, if you are not smooth, and you will loose it in a hurry and not be able to recover given it's characteristics.
When I discuss sawing I do mean in an overall fashion. Sure here and there a mistake in line will occur and some correction is needed.
A great example is Tiff. When you see him on 5th gear, you will undoubtedly see him sawing like crazy. He is doing that for sensationalism to kick the **** around.. When you actually see him trying to pull a great lap, or serious comparisons between cars, driving them at the limit, he is very smooth with little great corrections.
By doing huge midcorner correction you increase weight transfer and make the car unsettled and loose adhesion. You do not increase contact patch or slip angle, you unsettle it basically doing the same result as bumpsteer would do- changing the direction midcorner making the car unsettled and unbalanced.
Slip angle is great and desireable but that is with a proper loading of the suspension and judicial application of power through the apex- NO trial braking. Does Shoemaker trail brake? NO WAY in a mid engine car unless he is screwing around - sensationalism
The whole point is that I am reiterating everything known and imparted by reading any decent book or any acredited driving school. Anything else told about oh, trail braking is the only way to make the car turn in better. If the car was front engine, I would say that's fine and works well, otherwise you are loosing speed and your exit speed will prove it. The proper technique is straight line braking, looking toward the apex, pointing the car through there, looking through the apex to the exit while putting down the power through the apex. Again, this is for a mid engine car, but is applicable to the rear engine car. With a porsche you can get away with all sorts of error as it is setup to "not be a doctor killer anymore"
Enough said.
I didn't want to be a flame starter, I am only here to help and learn myself. It just bugs hearing wrong things especially with the possibility that someone will internalize it and profess something is right when it's clearly not.
otherwise I always enjoy the boards thanks for the fun
I am only going on everything I have learned by read as many driving books as possible, going to a handful of racing schools, and my experiences driving a professional prepped race car for season in SCCA.
Most people simply use improper technique and because they can pull the "sideways" factor and recover they believe they're at the limit, when in reality they're going slower each and every time. Road cars are setup much more "docile" to balance such improper driving. A professional setup car mid engine is a handful to drive, if you are not smooth, and you will loose it in a hurry and not be able to recover given it's characteristics.
When I discuss sawing I do mean in an overall fashion. Sure here and there a mistake in line will occur and some correction is needed.
A great example is Tiff. When you see him on 5th gear, you will undoubtedly see him sawing like crazy. He is doing that for sensationalism to kick the **** around.. When you actually see him trying to pull a great lap, or serious comparisons between cars, driving them at the limit, he is very smooth with little great corrections.
By doing huge midcorner correction you increase weight transfer and make the car unsettled and loose adhesion. You do not increase contact patch or slip angle, you unsettle it basically doing the same result as bumpsteer would do- changing the direction midcorner making the car unsettled and unbalanced.
Slip angle is great and desireable but that is with a proper loading of the suspension and judicial application of power through the apex- NO trial braking. Does Shoemaker trail brake? NO WAY in a mid engine car unless he is screwing around - sensationalism
The whole point is that I am reiterating everything known and imparted by reading any decent book or any acredited driving school. Anything else told about oh, trail braking is the only way to make the car turn in better. If the car was front engine, I would say that's fine and works well, otherwise you are loosing speed and your exit speed will prove it. The proper technique is straight line braking, looking toward the apex, pointing the car through there, looking through the apex to the exit while putting down the power through the apex. Again, this is for a mid engine car, but is applicable to the rear engine car. With a porsche you can get away with all sorts of error as it is setup to "not be a doctor killer anymore"
Enough said.
I didn't want to be a flame starter, I am only here to help and learn myself. It just bugs hearing wrong things especially with the possibility that someone will internalize it and profess something is right when it's clearly not.
otherwise I always enjoy the boards thanks for the fun
#45
02-11-2005 | 12:41 PM
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Originally posted by rockitman
Anyone who thinks that sawing is a bad idea when driving at the limit has been driving a traction controlled all wheel drive beast's too long. Sawing is not an option if you like your car to stay on the planned line....or the track for that matter...when driving the 3 or any other high performance rear wheel drive sportscar close to the limit...
Anyone who thinks that sawing is a bad idea when driving at the limit has been driving a traction controlled all wheel drive beast's too long. Sawing is not an option if you like your car to stay on the planned line....or the track for that matter...when driving the 3 or any other high performance rear wheel drive sportscar close to the limit...
Here are a couple of elementary rules for speed;
The more time spent with the front wheels straight and the throttle to the floor the faster you will be. Any unnecessary steering input will scrub speed.
The less abruptly you apply brakes, turn the steering wheel, or use the gas pedal, the smoother you will drive, and the more overall traction the car will have.
Simple advice from a driving hack.
