New Michelin Super Sports
#31
04-07-2011, 05:02 AM
Yes, they where very clear on the fact that the PSS is a road tire and is to be measured as such, while the MPSC is a track tire and NOT a road tire. The two tires are not being viewed as usable for the same application. PSS is for the road, Cup is for the track. The Cup will be able to retain the griplevel for much longer than either PS2 or PSS when run for as long and as hard as possible on a dry track.
As for your comment on "my estimate" regarding the track times, I don't estimate anything: I've tried to quote Michelin as good as possible, this is not my opinion or my numbers.
Another fact they gave after a question from attending public was regarding heat cycles for the Cup tire when new: No heat cycling is necessary, the tire works best brand new. Get it heated up, adjust air pressure and maximum grip is available.
As for your comment on "my estimate" regarding the track times, I don't estimate anything: I've tried to quote Michelin as good as possible, this is not my opinion or my numbers.
Another fact they gave after a question from attending public was regarding heat cycles for the Cup tire when new: No heat cycling is necessary, the tire works best brand new. Get it heated up, adjust air pressure and maximum grip is available.
I'm not asking if they are a racing tire. There are several street tires out now that offer R-compound level grip for short periods of time, and 2.5 seconds faster than a PS2 is in that realm even if it is for one lap.
#32
04-07-2011, 05:33 AM
Ordered a set with the OZ wheels about 4 weeks ago. Scheduled ship date is 15 April. Based on what I have read, I am excited about the tire and plan to use it mainly on the road.
I've pretty much determined at this point that its useless comparing a street oriented tire to a track oriented tire. Based on what I have read, including several comments in this thread, the SS is a street oriented tire for performance cars.
Me personally? I'm glad to have a street oriented tire for my Porsche with a tread life warranty. Will it help much? Don't know. Is it better than what's out there currently? Yes.
I've pretty much determined at this point that its useless comparing a street oriented tire to a track oriented tire. Based on what I have read, including several comments in this thread, the SS is a street oriented tire for performance cars.
Me personally? I'm glad to have a street oriented tire for my Porsche with a tread life warranty. Will it help much? Don't know. Is it better than what's out there currently? Yes.
#33
04-07-2011, 08:42 AM
The lines between street and track tire are becoming as blurry as the lines between super cars and hyper cars and whatever new name they will come up with. Tires like whats on the GT-R (Dunlop) have proven themselves to be as fast as R-competition (R888) tires with pro drivers driving them back to back.
If Michelin is going to make the claims that it's the fastest, then either it's marketing hype or you will have a tire that will turn a lap in the ballpark of an R888. It won't turn a whole session worth, but it will turn a couple of them.
With the prices of oil and track tires taking significant hikes recently, combined with guys looking for tires that can be driven in a variety of conditions, the PSS "could" be the answer for a lot of people, if the claims are true. No one will be looking to race on it. But it could be a great DE tire.
If Michelin is going to make the claims that it's the fastest, then either it's marketing hype or you will have a tire that will turn a lap in the ballpark of an R888. It won't turn a whole session worth, but it will turn a couple of them.
With the prices of oil and track tires taking significant hikes recently, combined with guys looking for tires that can be driven in a variety of conditions, the PSS "could" be the answer for a lot of people, if the claims are true. No one will be looking to race on it. But it could be a great DE tire.
#34
04-07-2011, 10:27 AM
There was a great comment from one of the other Porsche-owners attending the Michelin event regarding the PSS:
"If it's good enough for Bugatti Veyron then it's good enough for me".
I must say that I agree with him on that
"If it's good enough for Bugatti Veyron then it's good enough for me".
I must say that I agree with him on that
#35
04-15-2011, 08:15 AM
Got mine installed this week, no serious feedback yet as they are far from broken in. Im not concerned about the lack of N spec and I cant see them underperforming an N spec PS2 - not after all the marketing / testing on 997 cars anyways.
I will add they are not 'wobbly' in the rear like brand the new p zeros were once installed and the steering response is on par with worn P zeros as well - so we are off to a good start. Sorry for the lack of a technical term, but after installed my 2nd set of rears I noticed the rear end was a bit unsettled for a while. The new super sports did not do this.
I will add they are not 'wobbly' in the rear like brand the new p zeros were once installed and the steering response is on par with worn P zeros as well - so we are off to a good start. Sorry for the lack of a technical term, but after installed my 2nd set of rears I noticed the rear end was a bit unsettled for a while. The new super sports did not do this.
#36
04-15-2011, 09:37 AM
Hoping
Got mine installed this week, no serious feedback yet as they are far from broken in. Im not concerned about the lack of N spec and I cant see them underperforming an N spec PS2 - not after all the marketing / testing on 997 cars anyways.
I will add they are not 'wobbly' in the rear like brand the new p zeros were once installed and the steering response is on par with worn P zeros as well - so we are off to a good start. Sorry for the lack of a technical term, but after installed my 2nd set of rears I noticed the rear end was a bit unsettled for a while. The new super sports did not do this.
I will add they are not 'wobbly' in the rear like brand the new p zeros were once installed and the steering response is on par with worn P zeros as well - so we are off to a good start. Sorry for the lack of a technical term, but after installed my 2nd set of rears I noticed the rear end was a bit unsettled for a while. The new super sports did not do this.
I appreciate the info and am eager to hear more about tire.
Can you share any info about pricing?
TIA,
Mr. B
#38
04-15-2011, 10:45 AM
If the tires perform as promised, these babies will be a bargain.
Mr. B
#39
04-15-2011, 11:49 AM
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#40
04-15-2011, 11:54 AM
"As for the N-rating of tires for "older" cars, Michelin is highly unlikely to stop having tires for all Porsche models. They will either keep PS2 in production for a very long time for the cars rated with this tire, or it will be replaced by some other tire like PSS with appropriate rating.
The point is that a specific Porsche model is rated with a specific Michelin tire, and if/when PSS is rated for the new 991 or even 997 it is not automatically rated for 996 or older cars/other models. The tire has to be rated specifically for a given model for Michelin to approve it for that model.
This is not the same as saying that the tire will not work well on a 996, but it will not be the one approved by Michelin in this scenario thats all.
(Michelin made no statement regarding if the PSS will get a N-rating for 996, but I doubt it will - but this is my own opinion).
Michelin has also changed approved PS2 tires for some models over the years, a specific 996 model that used to be rated with a N2 tire is now rated with the N4 tire in the same dimension. The N2 tire is still in production an rated for other cars, and other models still use the N3 tires without being affected by the "newer" N4 tire. That is how the N-ratings works: N4 is not a better tire than N3, N2 or N1, it is just slightly different and recommended for different models."
Thanks for the data rbt. However in your post quoted above you seem to imply that Michelin rates their tires and assign the N designations for various Porsche models.
From what I gathered from reading Christophorus (Porsche's official publication) Porsche tire engineers do development and testing on various manufacturer tires and work with those tire companies' engineers to come up with their recommended (Porsche approved) tires for OEM replacement when they are worn out. Those N designations are awarded to those companies which have corroborated on their selection after extensive testing (at the Nurburgring). Before Porsche has done the testing and obtained the data for any new tires those tires cannot be awarded any "N" designations.
These new series of tires are mandated by European law to be formulated by newer environmentally more friendly regulations controlling the kinds of processing chemicals to be used in the manufacturing of tires after a certain date (2011?). So the tire companies are making these tires differently and adjusting in better performance and wear characteristics while they meet current regulatory mandates. So these new tires will not get N designations for older Porsche models because until Porsche goes back and test their use in those older models can they get any new N designations awarded.
The point is that a specific Porsche model is rated with a specific Michelin tire, and if/when PSS is rated for the new 991 or even 997 it is not automatically rated for 996 or older cars/other models. The tire has to be rated specifically for a given model for Michelin to approve it for that model.
This is not the same as saying that the tire will not work well on a 996, but it will not be the one approved by Michelin in this scenario thats all.
(Michelin made no statement regarding if the PSS will get a N-rating for 996, but I doubt it will - but this is my own opinion).
Michelin has also changed approved PS2 tires for some models over the years, a specific 996 model that used to be rated with a N2 tire is now rated with the N4 tire in the same dimension. The N2 tire is still in production an rated for other cars, and other models still use the N3 tires without being affected by the "newer" N4 tire. That is how the N-ratings works: N4 is not a better tire than N3, N2 or N1, it is just slightly different and recommended for different models."
Thanks for the data rbt. However in your post quoted above you seem to imply that Michelin rates their tires and assign the N designations for various Porsche models.
From what I gathered from reading Christophorus (Porsche's official publication) Porsche tire engineers do development and testing on various manufacturer tires and work with those tire companies' engineers to come up with their recommended (Porsche approved) tires for OEM replacement when they are worn out. Those N designations are awarded to those companies which have corroborated on their selection after extensive testing (at the Nurburgring). Before Porsche has done the testing and obtained the data for any new tires those tires cannot be awarded any "N" designations.
These new series of tires are mandated by European law to be formulated by newer environmentally more friendly regulations controlling the kinds of processing chemicals to be used in the manufacturing of tires after a certain date (2011?). So the tire companies are making these tires differently and adjusting in better performance and wear characteristics while they meet current regulatory mandates. So these new tires will not get N designations for older Porsche models because until Porsche goes back and test their use in those older models can they get any new N designations awarded.
#41
04-15-2011, 12:26 PM
"As for the N-rating of tires for "older" cars, Michelin is highly unlikely to stop having tires for all Porsche models. They will either keep PS2 in production for a very long time for the cars rated with this tire, or it will be replaced by some other tire like PSS with appropriate rating.
The point is that a specific Porsche model is rated with a specific Michelin tire, and if/when PSS is rated for the new 991 or even 997 it is not automatically rated for 996 or older cars/other models. The tire has to be rated specifically for a given model for Michelin to approve it for that model.
This is not the same as saying that the tire will not work well on a 996, but it will not be the one approved by Michelin in this scenario thats all.
(Michelin made no statement regarding if the PSS will get a N-rating for 996, but I doubt it will - but this is my own opinion).
Michelin has also changed approved PS2 tires for some models over the years, a specific 996 model that used to be rated with a N2 tire is now rated with the N4 tire in the same dimension. The N2 tire is still in production an rated for other cars, and other models still use the N3 tires without being affected by the "newer" N4 tire. That is how the N-ratings works: N4 is not a better tire than N3, N2 or N1, it is just slightly different and recommended for different models."
Thanks for the data rbt. However in your post quoted above you seem to imply that Michelin rates their tires and assign the N designations for various Porsche models.
From what I gathered from reading Christophorus (Porsche's official publication) Porsche tire engineers do development and testing on various manufacturer tires and work with those tire companies' engineers to come up with their recommended (Porsche approved) tires for OEM replacement when they are worn out. Those N designations are awarded to those companies which have corroborated on their selection after extensive testing (at the Nurburgring). Before Porsche has done the testing and obtained the data for any new tires those tires cannot be awarded any "N" designations.
These new series of tires are mandated by European law to be formulated by newer environmentally more friendly regulations controlling the kinds of processing chemicals to be used in the manufacturing of tires after a certain date (2011?). So the tire companies are making these tires differently and adjusting in better performance and wear characteristics while they meet current regulatory mandates. So these new tires will not get N designations for older Porsche models because until Porsche goes back and test their use in those older models can they get any new N designations awarded.
The point is that a specific Porsche model is rated with a specific Michelin tire, and if/when PSS is rated for the new 991 or even 997 it is not automatically rated for 996 or older cars/other models. The tire has to be rated specifically for a given model for Michelin to approve it for that model.
This is not the same as saying that the tire will not work well on a 996, but it will not be the one approved by Michelin in this scenario thats all.
(Michelin made no statement regarding if the PSS will get a N-rating for 996, but I doubt it will - but this is my own opinion).
Michelin has also changed approved PS2 tires for some models over the years, a specific 996 model that used to be rated with a N2 tire is now rated with the N4 tire in the same dimension. The N2 tire is still in production an rated for other cars, and other models still use the N3 tires without being affected by the "newer" N4 tire. That is how the N-ratings works: N4 is not a better tire than N3, N2 or N1, it is just slightly different and recommended for different models."
Thanks for the data rbt. However in your post quoted above you seem to imply that Michelin rates their tires and assign the N designations for various Porsche models.
From what I gathered from reading Christophorus (Porsche's official publication) Porsche tire engineers do development and testing on various manufacturer tires and work with those tire companies' engineers to come up with their recommended (Porsche approved) tires for OEM replacement when they are worn out. Those N designations are awarded to those companies which have corroborated on their selection after extensive testing (at the Nurburgring). Before Porsche has done the testing and obtained the data for any new tires those tires cannot be awarded any "N" designations.
These new series of tires are mandated by European law to be formulated by newer environmentally more friendly regulations controlling the kinds of processing chemicals to be used in the manufacturing of tires after a certain date (2011?). So the tire companies are making these tires differently and adjusting in better performance and wear characteristics while they meet current regulatory mandates. So these new tires will not get N designations for older Porsche models because until Porsche goes back and test their use in those older models can they get any new N designations awarded.
#42
04-15-2011, 01:33 PM
Ritchie18,
I never said non N rated tires are no good or cannot be used. The whole purpose of Porsche doing testing and making a list of recommended tires (from various manufacturers) after extensive research and development is to make sure the reputation of their products (cars in this case) and their corporate reputation does not suffer from people going their own way and doing their own experimentation as to what to put into their cars after it leaves the manufacturer. Porsche parts are designed for use in Porsche cars and they carry a 2 year warranty, with the warning to not use after-market substitutes (whose quality and control is often below that of OEM parts). Some people may consider that a marketing ploy to continue the fleecing of Porsche owners. However, it is probably pretty obvious that amongst all other producers out there, we are enthusiastic about Porsches because they have a proven track record and have demonstrated engineering excellence to deserve their loyal following.
As I've mentioned before, all manufacturers are required by new laws to change the way they make future tires. What that means may be that as the current runs of PS2's runs out their replacement PS2's made using the new method may be a different (maybe improved) tire carrying on the old name (for brand name recognition, marketting, etc.). The N designation is not exclusively given to Michelin tires as Pirelli, Bridgestone, Continental, etc have all have their N spec tires for Porsche applications.
My '10 Gt3 came with Pirelli Corsa's which have seen about 5000 miles (1000 miles on the track) use on street+track use. They are about 35% worn after 12 track days. I haven't been pushing the limits and have found them to be perfectly suitable for their dual purposes of being able to drive on both street and track with good longevity. When they get worn out I will probably try other brands due to their costs of replacement being higher than I like.
I never said non N rated tires are no good or cannot be used. The whole purpose of Porsche doing testing and making a list of recommended tires (from various manufacturers) after extensive research and development is to make sure the reputation of their products (cars in this case) and their corporate reputation does not suffer from people going their own way and doing their own experimentation as to what to put into their cars after it leaves the manufacturer. Porsche parts are designed for use in Porsche cars and they carry a 2 year warranty, with the warning to not use after-market substitutes (whose quality and control is often below that of OEM parts). Some people may consider that a marketing ploy to continue the fleecing of Porsche owners. However, it is probably pretty obvious that amongst all other producers out there, we are enthusiastic about Porsches because they have a proven track record and have demonstrated engineering excellence to deserve their loyal following.
As I've mentioned before, all manufacturers are required by new laws to change the way they make future tires. What that means may be that as the current runs of PS2's runs out their replacement PS2's made using the new method may be a different (maybe improved) tire carrying on the old name (for brand name recognition, marketting, etc.). The N designation is not exclusively given to Michelin tires as Pirelli, Bridgestone, Continental, etc have all have their N spec tires for Porsche applications.
My '10 Gt3 came with Pirelli Corsa's which have seen about 5000 miles (1000 miles on the track) use on street+track use. They are about 35% worn after 12 track days. I haven't been pushing the limits and have found them to be perfectly suitable for their dual purposes of being able to drive on both street and track with good longevity. When they get worn out I will probably try other brands due to their costs of replacement being higher than I like.
#43
04-15-2011, 02:24 PM
After reading both your posts I am still wondering what your point exactly is. My point is, If the PS2's are not produced anymore and Porsche does not give N-spec to a new tire, there shouldn't be a worry as there are tires that perform better or equivalent to the N-spec tires (Regardless of what Porsche recommends/says. We know at this point they're in the business to make money). Additionally the rating may be beneficial at the time of production(developing a tire more specific to that model), but as we see now, the PSS are most likely superior to the PS2 in every way, including price.
#44
04-15-2011, 04:29 PM
My point is there are like you say many choices when it comes time to buy new tires. The Porsche N designations are just a guide and helpful recommendation for making a choice which you know was based on testing and research by Porsche for use on their cars. There is no compulsory decision to use N tires if you wish to try other newer technology that becomes available years after the OEM tires were first used. I agree with you that tire technology is a very competitive market like cars. Fortunately, in order to remain in the top spot Porsche must be on the cutting edge of technology (hence you see hybrids being developed, PDK (24 year gestation period before being used on their street cars), PTV (torque vectoring to make all wheel drive cars turn better), etc. Other car companies who produces high or extreme performance cars don't do half the amount of research and development that Porsche does for their products. So when it comes to tires, Porsche has already done their homework to answer the question of which tires will work for their cars.
So I think we are in agreement that there are other choices out there so there is no need to worry if the older cars N-tires are no longer produced or available.
So I think we are in agreement that there are other choices out there so there is no need to worry if the older cars N-tires are no longer produced or available.
#45
04-15-2011, 10:39 PM
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My plan has been to get a set for street use on my 7.2GT3. Haven't contemplated track use. Prefer Nitto NT-01s on the 6.2GT3. I am going to pull the trigger shortly. Will update as the rubber hits the pavement.