991 GT3 -> No manual Transmission?
#61
09-19-2012, 11:45 AM
I notice the lack of heel/toe in a lot of amateur racing as well. The guys who aren't using heel/toe anymore are doing so probably because a lot of people still don't know the technique well enough. And they probably don't care about the gearbox rebuilds that come with it. It's hard to drive 10/10ths and heel/toe, takes skill. And given that they are winners, is more than likely they have the most money in their cars anyways and can afford to do extra gearbox rebuilds. There is no question that it preserves the life of the tranmission.
Watch Leh Keens 996 GT3 RS videos for someone who knows how to drive a manual properly. There is no way for heel/toe to slow you down when done properly. And PDK isn't going to reduce time. In fact, versus a race car setup, PDK probably adds 150-200 lbs, which will slow you down.
Watch Leh Keens 996 GT3 RS videos for someone who knows how to drive a manual properly. There is no way for heel/toe to slow you down when done properly. And PDK isn't going to reduce time. In fact, versus a race car setup, PDK probably adds 150-200 lbs, which will slow you down.
However, I'll add that for most cars, yes, I agree - extra weight = slower laptimes (more abuse on the tires/brakes, etc...). BUT - if we are talking about race trim, there is usually a minimum weight for a given car. Let's take F-1 for example, where the car + driver must be greater than or equal to 'x'. The driver loses weight, so the engineers can more strategically place weight where it benefits the most (or has the least negative effect). The PDK transmission, although it will add weight to an existing relatively lightweight tranmission, is low to the ground, and can be placed with the majority over the rear wheels (and some weight can be removed from other parts), etc...
We've discussed this in the past, a lot more to be considered than sheer weight, would be placement, balance, etc...
(Not disagreeing, just offering another perspective)
Regarding street cars - I believe this to have minimal impact (or more advantages than disadvantages).
#62
09-19-2012, 12:40 PM
That dude can drive.
However, I'll add that for most cars, yes, I agree - extra weight = slower laptimes (more abuse on the tires/brakes, etc...). BUT - if we are talking about race trim, there is usually a minimum weight for a given car. Let's take F-1 for example, where the car + driver must be greater than or equal to 'x'. The driver loses weight, so the engineers can more strategically place weight where it benefits the most (or has the least negative effect). The PDK transmission, although it will add weight to an existing relatively lightweight tranmission, is low to the ground, and can be placed with the majority over the rear wheels (and some weight can be removed from other parts), etc...
We've discussed this in the past, a lot more to be considered than sheer weight, would be placement, balance, etc...
(Not disagreeing, just offering another perspective)
Regarding street cars - I believe this to have minimal impact (or more advantages than disadvantages).
However, I'll add that for most cars, yes, I agree - extra weight = slower laptimes (more abuse on the tires/brakes, etc...). BUT - if we are talking about race trim, there is usually a minimum weight for a given car. Let's take F-1 for example, where the car + driver must be greater than or equal to 'x'. The driver loses weight, so the engineers can more strategically place weight where it benefits the most (or has the least negative effect). The PDK transmission, although it will add weight to an existing relatively lightweight tranmission, is low to the ground, and can be placed with the majority over the rear wheels (and some weight can be removed from other parts), etc...
We've discussed this in the past, a lot more to be considered than sheer weight, would be placement, balance, etc...
(Not disagreeing, just offering another perspective)
Regarding street cars - I believe this to have minimal impact (or more advantages than disadvantages).
And, as the case with the GT-R, too much gadgetry makes the car impossible to get light. They don't make cars run ballast because the World Challenge GT-R's are fat. Minimum weight is achieved by minimalist approach. Hard to run at a minimum weight when you start off with a 200 lbs penalty. Weight is a killer in endurance racing (fuel, tires, brakes all suffer).
In GT racing the cars are run near the minimum that the car get get per the rules. Use of fancy materials are limited when the chassis is production based. So you can't just take out part of the cage, or the floor to save weight, and 200 lbs is HUGE. I see what you are saying but that approach won't really work. The manufacturer goes the sanctioning body and gets the lightest weight possible given the rules and what the chassis is capable of. This would make it impossible to recover the weight penalty if the other cars are running the lightest the rules will allow, which is what every team will do.
Dual clutches are phony race clutches. They aren't really made for racing because there is no real benefit.
Last edited by heavychevy; 09-19-2012 at 12:42 PM.
#63
09-19-2012, 01:06 PM
I notice the lack of heel/toe in a lot of amateur racing as well. The guys who aren't using heel/toe anymore are doing so probably because a lot of people still don't know the technique well enough. And they probably don't care about the gearbox rebuilds that come with it. It's hard to drive 10/10ths and heel/toe, takes skill. And given that they are winners, is more than likely they have the most money in their cars anyways and can afford to do extra gearbox rebuilds. There is no question that it preserves the life of the tranmission.
Watch Leh Keens 996 GT3 RS videos for someone who knows how to drive a manual properly. There is no way for heel/toe to slow you down when done properly. And PDK isn't going to reduce time. In fact, versus a race car setup, PDK probably adds 150-200 lbs, which will slow you down.
url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wkTuLjkY70"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wkTuLjkY70[/url]
Watch Leh Keens 996 GT3 RS videos for someone who knows how to drive a manual properly. There is no way for heel/toe to slow you down when done properly. And PDK isn't going to reduce time. In fact, versus a race car setup, PDK probably adds 150-200 lbs, which will slow you down.
url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wkTuLjkY70"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wkTuLjkY70[/url]
Mr. B
#64
09-19-2012, 01:36 PM
9 years and no trans rebuild? That's very far from the norm (unless we are talking miata or something similar). Is it a high powered car like a GT3?
#66
09-20-2012, 08:36 AM
The difference is that an F1 transmission as well as pretty much all real racing transmissions, have one clutch. Extra weight anywhere is bad. A true racing sequential is different and massively better, because it can shift as fast and still not add weight.
And, as the case with the GT-R, too much gadgetry makes the car impossible to get light. They don't make cars run ballast because the World Challenge GT-R's are fat. Minimum weight is achieved by minimalist approach. Hard to run at a minimum weight when you start off with a 200 lbs penalty. Weight is a killer in endurance racing (fuel, tires, brakes all suffer).
In GT racing the cars are run near the minimum that the car get get per the rules. Use of fancy materials are limited when the chassis is production based. So you can't just take out part of the cage, or the floor to save weight, and 200 lbs is HUGE. I see what you are saying but that approach won't really work. The manufacturer goes the sanctioning body and gets the lightest weight possible given the rules and what the chassis is capable of. This would make it impossible to recover the weight penalty if the other cars are running the lightest the rules will allow, which is what every team will do.
Dual clutches are phony race clutches. They aren't really made for racing because there is no real benefit.
And, as the case with the GT-R, too much gadgetry makes the car impossible to get light. They don't make cars run ballast because the World Challenge GT-R's are fat. Minimum weight is achieved by minimalist approach. Hard to run at a minimum weight when you start off with a 200 lbs penalty. Weight is a killer in endurance racing (fuel, tires, brakes all suffer).
In GT racing the cars are run near the minimum that the car get get per the rules. Use of fancy materials are limited when the chassis is production based. So you can't just take out part of the cage, or the floor to save weight, and 200 lbs is HUGE. I see what you are saying but that approach won't really work. The manufacturer goes the sanctioning body and gets the lightest weight possible given the rules and what the chassis is capable of. This would make it impossible to recover the weight penalty if the other cars are running the lightest the rules will allow, which is what every team will do.
Dual clutches are phony race clutches. They aren't really made for racing because there is no real benefit.
But the dual clutch could very realistically be that happy medium that truly allows a street car to be driven to a track, driven on the track as they do in professional racing (paddle shifters 'n all), and then driven home, ready for the commute to work the next day to tell all of your coworkers how you passed a Corvette on track.
#70
09-21-2012, 07:08 PM
I don't wish to add any more debate to whether the new GT3 should or should not be Manual only. It all comes down to personal preferences anyway.
However, it's interesting to hear from a current F1 driver talking about the drivers and the cars from an earlier era. Here is a clip of Lewis Hamilton driving Senna's 88 F1 car from Top Gear. A 1200bhp F1 car with manual transmission and NO power steering!
The bottom line is it takes a incredible set of skills to drive manual cars, but these are skills that most people will probably never acquire.
However, it's interesting to hear from a current F1 driver talking about the drivers and the cars from an earlier era. Here is a clip of Lewis Hamilton driving Senna's 88 F1 car from Top Gear. A 1200bhp F1 car with manual transmission and NO power steering!
The bottom line is it takes a incredible set of skills to drive manual cars, but these are skills that most people will probably never acquire.
#71
09-22-2012, 05:59 AM
Yep
I'll buy one either way.....if no manual, just won't ever sell my orange RS 
#72
09-22-2012, 10:47 AM
#73
09-22-2012, 12:26 PM
F-1's, I believe, still have only one clutch, because the FIA requires a brief period of time when the car is changing gears. There is current technology to overlap these, but it is not allowed. I'm not sure how you could overlap gear changes with only one clutch... Maybe I'm not familiar with how advanced technology really is. It makes sense to keep it as light as possible (LF-A, R8 R-tronic, etc...), with an automated single clutch setup, and that may be the way to go for a racing implentation..., but the dual clutch just solves so many issues for a dual purpose car (track/street) (daily preferences, no 'money' shift, manual control, never really out of gear, can't abuse clutch, etc...).
But the dual clutch could very realistically be that happy medium that truly allows a street car to be driven to a track, driven on the track as they do in professional racing (paddle shifters 'n all), and then driven home, ready for the commute to work the next day to tell all of your coworkers how you passed a Corvette on track.
But the dual clutch could very realistically be that happy medium that truly allows a street car to be driven to a track, driven on the track as they do in professional racing (paddle shifters 'n all), and then driven home, ready for the commute to work the next day to tell all of your coworkers how you passed a Corvette on track.
Dual clutch adds weight, cost of labor, cost and number of parts. And essentially has no benefit over an F1 style transmission as found in the Ferrari's (430, 458 etc.). This would be a much more suitable style gearbox for a GT3.
If that's the sequential they were using, I could live with it. PDK. No thanks. Not in a GT3.
#74
09-22-2012, 03:07 PM
No one would want to add a whole second clutch and electronics to save milliseconds on a shift. The weight penalty would be far worse than any benefit unless they taylor made the rules to suit it. Besides, sounds like pure speculation.
Dual clutch adds weight, cost of labor, cost and number of parts. And essentially has no benefit over an F1 style transmission as found in the Ferrari's (430, 458 etc.). This would be a much more suitable style gearbox for a GT3.
If that's the sequential they were using, I could live with it. PDK. No thanks. Not in a GT3.
Dual clutch adds weight, cost of labor, cost and number of parts. And essentially has no benefit over an F1 style transmission as found in the Ferrari's (430, 458 etc.). This would be a much more suitable style gearbox for a GT3.
If that's the sequential they were using, I could live with it. PDK. No thanks. Not in a GT3.
#75
09-22-2012, 03:32 PM
You are correct, I forgot they went to dual clutch on the 458. Interesting that the F430, with a significant straight line disadvantage is pretty even on the circuit with the ~200 lbs it saves mostly from having automated single clutch.
The 458 is a beast of a chassis though. Car is unbelievable in racing.
The 458 is a beast of a chassis though. Car is unbelievable in racing.