The 993TT is no 959. The AWD system is archaic by compairison. No car will ever have the AWD system of the of 959 -- it is impossible to reproduce. The feel of the steering is subsequently lame by compairison. My 959 gleeful passed a befuddled 993TT owner in the freezing rain/snow near Big Bear thanks to the snow program on the four away adjustable traction control. I rasied the car up to avoid snow drifts just in case. Not to mention if I decide to run at 130 mph for a few hours Ive got the tire pressure monitoring system to to warn me if anything is going wrong with my run flat tires. If my windshield is hit by debris, I don't have to worry, as it is made of a special shatterproof non-glass based material. and if my *** is getting sore I can simply soften the shocks. Shall I go on?

Now, this is not to say the 993TT and the Turbo R variant aren't awesome. They are two of the best cars on the planet. And of course, modern cars are improvements in many ways. Then again, Bruce Canepa makes a few modern modifications to the 959 and ends up with a 3.2 sec 0-62 beast because the 959 engine is capable of huge HP as witnessed in its Lemans variants. This aided by the fact that the air cooled engine is assisted by liquid cooling of the cylinder heads. The car's stability is stunning, due to the fact that it has a zero lift design.

Another great feature of the 959 very few people know is that its warning systems include combinations of lights and various buzzers. Why is this good? Because it allows you to instantly get a sense of how bad a problem you might be having. None of this "check engine" crap. That is not helpful at 145 in the Sahara. How bad is the problem? In the 959 you know at once if it is something that requires immediate attention, or is something you can try to fix in an hour or in a week.

Oh, and BTW -- 283 made total including non-conforming prototypes.

Was and always will be THE pinnacle of 911 engineering. Unless Porsche decides to top it. Which I wish they would.

Frankly, who on earth would prefer to own a 993 of any kind over a 959?

 

I understand and respect your reasoning, however, this is a forum called "6speedonline", not "carbusinessonline". Failure?! If a car is built to drive, and drive fast, how could you possibly say the car is a failure. And frankly, I am getting a little tired of people trying to post negative things about a car that they have decided not to buy, and then try to justify their decision by some "rational" rationale.

You don't like the car. Fine. But for goodness sakes, give it a rest. Any of us could go down your list of cars and rip on them too. There is no reason to buy a CGT or any other car that one could say is more rational than another. There are plenty of things I could say about every car I've owned. Reason? What does reason really have to do with it? It is ALL SUBJECTIVE.

You buy your cars as investments? There are much better investments in the world. You want an everyday supercar? What does everyday mean to you? Four useable seats...?

Here's why I didn't buy a this... or a that. Here's why I don't live in Miami, or Des Moines...

Here are reasons I understand not to buy one. 1) It doesn't thrill me. 2) I don't want to spend that much money on that car. 3) I am not a good enough driver to use it. 4-infinity) I don't like it very much. Not worth it to me...etc.

All of these other reasons are silly, manufactured, justifications -- as if to say "oh, I could get one, I just don't want to -- and let me tell you why so you can see I'm smart..."

I know that reads as angry. It is not. Think about it. Why would you post about not doing something? Why feel the need to list item after item and add qualifications? Just say -- I don't like the damn car and be done with it. Your other reasons are smoke and mirrors, even if you dont realize it.

Me thinks thou all doth protest too much.

You don't like the car. It's okay, really.

I don't like Lambos. Think Mercs are for old men. And I hated the 360 except for the Stradale. Does anyone really care?

 

Enzo is quoted as being lighter than CGT (1250kg vs 1380kg).

F40 and McLaren F1 were much lighter at circa 1100kg (ah the days of no airbags etc).

Have people weighed the Enzo then, given your comments as it would not surprise me to find Ferraris numbers were off. It is common for them to quote weight without fuel and liquids for example.

I would also be interested if you have weighed your 959, as I have widely read that they are heavier than quoted and frequently weigh over 1600kg.

The reason I ask it is that I have always loved the 959 and feel it was a wonder in it's day, but feel that it is now only comparable to a 996 Turbo X50 in what it can deliver performance-wise.

These questions are heavily influenced by the fact that there is a silver 959 for sale near me in England, where they were fully road-legal to start with, for $180,000, with 20,000 miles, full history and totally original.......

 

I posted out of frustration with Porsche. I just don't like what they did to profit from a defunct project by re-purposing something designed for a totally different application and not doing a very good job at it.

BTW, I agree that the 959 is a more desirable car for some collectors because of it's unique gadgets and limited production. Personally, I like usable cars with very high performance and reliability. The 959 non-sport performance on the street and track is equal or less then a factory stock 993 TT S. See Car & Driver magazine, July 1997:

993/959:

Weight: 3390 lbs/3593 lbs
0-60: 3.7/3.6
0-100: 8.8/8.8
0-130: 15.9/15.9
5-60: 4.3/4.9
1/4-mile: 12.2@114/12.0@116
70-0 braking: 151 ft/166 ft
Roadholding .94g/.87g
Fuel economy: 16 mpg/13 mpg

However, they go on to say that the 959 is supernaturally stable at high speed due to it's superior aerodynamic design and higher-profile tires, even with its "pillowy" suspension compared to the 993 TT. And, as you pointed out, the 959 is likely much better on slippery and rough road surfaces.

I recall someone at Andial saying that the 993 TT is clearly better than the 959 regarding normal street performance and reliability, primarily because of its overall simpler design and larger engine. It's fun to have the gadgets, but for pure driving pleasure, I prefer a fast, reliable, usable and fun-to-drive car with good looks. I would certainly enjoy having a 959 to show off to my auto friends, but would probably drive my Ruf more.

 

(Deanger says)

".....how could you possibly say the car is a failure?"

In marketing terms the car is a failure.

I thought I had previously put "failure" in a specific context, not as an absolute.

(Deanger says)
"....Does anyone really care?"

Obviously you do, based upon your post; but you don't get to define the forum rules, or be the authority in ascribing motivations, setting the parameters for expression of opinions... or be judge, jury and hangman.

It's best to suck up your frustration (and anger?), like the rest of us. If you were intimately involved in the prospective purchase of this car then you might empathize with the many frustrations created by Porsche and its Dealers along the way.

The CGT will be what it will be in the long run, irrespective of the individual desires for it to be the supercar of supercars.

I just wonder how long it will take to sell them all, since they "unsold" a lot of their "rational" buyers, and killed the natural market for the car (IMO).

 

Hi Gary,

I paid $45/qt for the "high-performance" version of the Shell oil that was recommended for the 360 CS if one tracks the car. That's what the F dealer said, anyway.

 

Huh?! If by marketing failure, you mean appearing on the covers of car magazines around the world multiple times, generating Porsche buzz in the press, and increasing the brand prestige, then I guess I can agree!

Maybe you mean "Sales" failure? Perhaps it was, because they dumped a lot of cars into a market that can only absorb so many $.5Mil cars at a time.

 

Perhaps my tone qualifier did not work. I was merely pointing out that I find it odd for people to go to great lengths to explain why they are not doing something.

I have no frustration and no anger. I am in the process of buying a CGT and quite happy about it. I think the car is very good, and prefer it to the Enzo and the SLR, both of which cost more (though perhaps not the SLR for long).

Again, as for failure, the only thing I can think of is that it was a failure for many dealers because they violated Porsche's edict and ordered cars without customers. So if I were a dealer I would say it is a failure if I did that. As a customer -- I can get one (unlike and Enzo) and I don't have to pay over sticker to line some dealer's pocket.

For me that's a success!!

Cheers

 

Dean,

I have wanted to say many of the same things you said in your post above, but I never got around to it. Maybe if one owns a Carrera GT, one's perspective is different from those who don't/won't, and that's all there is to it.

I, too, tire of all the contorted pseudo-logic applied to convince me that I'm crazy, irrational, or a poor judge of cars just because I fell for Porsche's greedy product planning like a drunk falls into the gutter.

Car-related discussion forums should be lots of fun, but there seems to be something about discussing the Carrera GT that brings out bonus quotas of know-it-alls bent on instructing the rest of the world what a bad deal Porsche gave us. Some of the most vituperative rants started even before the first customer car had been delivered.

I think Porsche upset the common order of brand identity with the CGT. It used to be that Italian exotics were very expensive and stirred passions as well as guaranteed status. Everybody knows that Ferraris and Lambos are the "safe" choice for a thrilling vehicle of beauty, plus outward indications of financial fortitude.

Porsches, on the other hand, had been the territory of "rational" high performance. They were great to drive, but on a "reasonable" budget, without the connotations of flagrant excess that easily attached in the public eye to the Italian marques.

The Carrera GT did away with that tradition. Now, even a Porsche can cost crazy money, but because it isn't a Ferrari or Lamborghini it doesn't fit the expected mold. This seems to cause a lot of confusion and discomfort among some of the cognoscenti.

The result of this positioning confusion soldiers on, disguised as a scholarly discourse of all the perceived faults of the Carrera GT. To me, as an owner, this uninformed speculation is almost always amusing but it sometimes crosses over the line into thinly veiled insult, which detracts mightily from any fun I might have in conversing about my car. That part is sort of sad to contemplate. I don't know how it will evolve over time.

My hope is that as more and more posters get some real experience with the car, fewer and fewer will be tempted to call out owners as fools.

But, I guess the world was ever thus.

 

Very astute, I think, Mike. I hadn't considered the price-point/brand issue, but I think you are right. The only other crazy money Porsche was the 959 and they didn't even bother selling to Americans and they sold it at a loss.

It is hard to imagine there are two different 400k cars for sale in the world. Over 2,000 vehicles.

 

Putting aside the 959 stuff (with one last, Car and Driver doesn't know anything -- I owned both cars and the 959 rocks, I swear) your Ruf car is amazing. Alois Ruf is one of the nicest guys you will ever meet, and I've thought about his cars a lot. I haven't heard much about his own Ruf car that he was building as an answer to the CGT for sometime.

Do you know what is going on with that?

Everytime I'm in a Ruf car I'm impressed. Every single time. They are probably what I would call the best everyday supercar in the world, because you really could live with only a Ruf and no other car.

 

Bill,

The AWD system on the 993 is far less sophisticated and capable (but perhaps more reliable) than the 959's. In fact, the 964 C4's system is a derivative of the 959's system but they went to a simpler mechanical rather than fully electronic system due to reliability concerns. The system in the 959 is still considered advanced even today, as among its other features it has infinitely variable torque split through a much wider range between the front and rear wheels, i.e. 80% to the rear wheels under normal conditions and up to 50/50 under slippery conditions. It is also the only system to constantly adjust the torque split constantly under normal driving conditions, unlike the vicscous coupling system on the 993 and 996.

Porsche uses a system of locking clutches, which unlike other implementations of AWD, the 959's torque split varied under no slip conditions. i.e. in the 993 and other AWD systems, the split is fixed at a certain ratio until slip occurs, after which the various limited slip devices would begin to alter the split. In the 959, the AWD computer is fed information from many sources, including throttle position, steering angle, g force accelerometers and even the turbo boost gauge. For example when you go full throttle in a straight line, the system will send up to 80% of the power (from a normal 40 front/60 rear split) to the rear wheels, even if all 4 wheels are turning at exactly the same speed. Far and away the most complex AWD system implemented!

Perhaps the bling bling drag racers should stop wasting their time making 1000hp 996TT's and start modifying 959s instead.

A properly set up 959 is still an awesome car by today's standards. A modified one will blow away most of the 996 Turbos on this board with ease.

 

Finally, a little love for the 959! Tyson, my man!

 

Dean and Mike, I couldn't agree with you more. I think it comes down to the fact that some people on this board are trying to talk themselves out of buying one since the temptation is so strong or they are resentful about the fact that they can't afford to buy or run a CGT, so they just put the car down so they can feel better about their inferior vehicles.

Hey, what can you do, there will always be haters.

I, for one, believe the CGT is the best car on the planet today, especially for its price.

It is one of the few (and I do mean FEW) cars that made me a little sad when I had to step into my measly little GT2 after spending half a day riding around in a CGT...

Dean, you have to do it! Are you going buy our friend's car?

I hope you will give me a ride in it sometime.

 

You know how much I love your car, every time I see it I just walk around and stare at it like it's my first time seeing one.

After all, I was peripherally involved in helping you find that beauty of yours!

I need a ride in that one, too!