Why I don't buy a CGT
#76
08-28-2005, 08:39 PM
Re: Yes, Ruf cars are amazing.
Originally posted by deanger
I haven't heard much about his own Ruf car that he was building as an answer to the CGT for sometime. Do you know what is going on with that?
I haven't heard much about his own Ruf car that he was building as an answer to the CGT for sometime. Do you know what is going on with that?
#78
08-28-2005, 11:07 PM
"Hey, what can you do, there will always be haters."
Just because some rationalize the decision not to purchase, until the market reaches a bottom, does not make them haters.
I have a healthy respect for this car...but it's a $375K vehicle, as originally determined by Porsche, assuming world wide volumes of 1000 units.
Any increase over that, especially based upon Dealer greed and mis-information (price or volume) doesn't make it worth anymore.
Again, if you deal in the OEM world you learn to set price and cost targets and live with them, come hell or high water. Changing after the fact suggests incompetence or stupidity and most OEMs won't accept it. Maybe it easier to screw the "retail" market.
It's all a matter of perspective and opinion. My "radar" tells me if I was in a world where I could take $20 worth of components and package them in a retail market to sell them for $400 on an individual basis I would have one perspective towards value.
On the other hand, if I am in the OEM business selling to automotive customers, in high volumes, where margins are severly limited due to competitive pressures, I would have another perspective towards value.
That doesn't mean anyone is "fool", it just means that perspectives and base lines are different; yielding a difference in interpretation of the value proposition.
Auyone who interprets, opines or ascribes affordability motives to "posters" is skating on thin ice and is engaging in "asinine" behaviour.
There is an old saying in the automotive business, developed long before the "supercar' era that goes:
"There is an '***' for every seat"
So it is clearly a mattter of preference whether you want to put you '***' in a Carrera GT, now or later.
While an "immediate" decision may make you enlightened, impatient, foolish or anywhere in between, it is an individual decision and should be respected.
However, it doesn't change the realities of the marketing, or sales failure (if you want to engage in semantics).
If you don't believe the "failure", visit or have your dealer run a "locate" and determine just how many cars are out there.
The Carrera GT is a fantastic car, but each individual will determine their own value equation, for me it is to too fluid and confusing, at the moment, to determine or decide upon.
Now, if you have more money than God it probably doesn't matter.
Separately, you may just want your "***" in that seat, but that has little to do with "value", and may be more related to preference, ego or circumstance (non-refundable deposit ).
Just because some rationalize the decision not to purchase, until the market reaches a bottom, does not make them haters.
I have a healthy respect for this car...but it's a $375K vehicle, as originally determined by Porsche, assuming world wide volumes of 1000 units.
Any increase over that, especially based upon Dealer greed and mis-information (price or volume) doesn't make it worth anymore.
Again, if you deal in the OEM world you learn to set price and cost targets and live with them, come hell or high water. Changing after the fact suggests incompetence or stupidity and most OEMs won't accept it. Maybe it easier to screw the "retail" market.
It's all a matter of perspective and opinion. My "radar" tells me if I was in a world where I could take $20 worth of components and package them in a retail market to sell them for $400 on an individual basis I would have one perspective towards value.
On the other hand, if I am in the OEM business selling to automotive customers, in high volumes, where margins are severly limited due to competitive pressures, I would have another perspective towards value.
That doesn't mean anyone is "fool", it just means that perspectives and base lines are different; yielding a difference in interpretation of the value proposition.
Auyone who interprets, opines or ascribes affordability motives to "posters" is skating on thin ice and is engaging in "asinine" behaviour.
There is an old saying in the automotive business, developed long before the "supercar' era that goes:
"There is an '***' for every seat"
So it is clearly a mattter of preference whether you want to put you '***' in a Carrera GT, now or later.
While an "immediate" decision may make you enlightened, impatient, foolish or anywhere in between, it is an individual decision and should be respected.
However, it doesn't change the realities of the marketing, or sales failure (if you want to engage in semantics).
If you don't believe the "failure", visit or have your dealer run a "locate" and determine just how many cars are out there.
The Carrera GT is a fantastic car, but each individual will determine their own value equation, for me it is to too fluid and confusing, at the moment, to determine or decide upon.
Now, if you have more money than God it probably doesn't matter.
Separately, you may just want your "***" in that seat, but that has little to do with "value", and may be more related to preference, ego or circumstance (non-refundable deposit ).
#79
08-29-2005, 06:06 AM
cnc, i'm not really sure what the point of your long diatribe was.
To me, it's very simple... the Carrera GT is one of the street-legal machines on the planet at any price. whether or not it is a marketing "failure" is really irrelevant to people who know cars, are able to drive and enjoy them properly, and can afford to fit the bill. Perhaps the problem is that you are too focused on the economics of car trading and future value rather than accepting that it is a depreciating asset like most luxury items. How much it costs you to own perhaps the finest sports car on the road is up to you, but I tend to think that most people who buy CGT's really aren't all that concerned about a $100K here or there. At least the people who know I own the car never seem to mention anything related to price, or even the exorbitant price of the parts. They are too busy enjoying the car.
If you have extensive seat time in a CGT, I'd be glad to hear why it's not a good value. And how ANY of this has to do with the CGT being a sales failure... whether or not it is true, is it really RELEVANT to people who would actually BUY this car, as opposed to judgmental dreamers and tire kickers???
People bash the GT2 as being a marketing failure too, but I can't say I give one ****. I love the car, and it is worth every penny, and even more so at today's prices. If it was such a failure, why is Porsche making another one???
All it shows is that the vast majority of people are morons or blingers or both, and have no business driving these cars anyway. If that makes prices drop, then so be it. I am just glad these cars are ending up in the hands of worthy owners.
To me, it's very simple... the Carrera GT is one of the street-legal machines on the planet at any price. whether or not it is a marketing "failure" is really irrelevant to people who know cars, are able to drive and enjoy them properly, and can afford to fit the bill. Perhaps the problem is that you are too focused on the economics of car trading and future value rather than accepting that it is a depreciating asset like most luxury items. How much it costs you to own perhaps the finest sports car on the road is up to you, but I tend to think that most people who buy CGT's really aren't all that concerned about a $100K here or there. At least the people who know I own the car never seem to mention anything related to price, or even the exorbitant price of the parts. They are too busy enjoying the car.
If you have extensive seat time in a CGT, I'd be glad to hear why it's not a good value. And how ANY of this has to do with the CGT being a sales failure... whether or not it is true, is it really RELEVANT to people who would actually BUY this car, as opposed to judgmental dreamers and tire kickers???
People bash the GT2 as being a marketing failure too, but I can't say I give one ****. I love the car, and it is worth every penny, and even more so at today's prices. If it was such a failure, why is Porsche making another one???
All it shows is that the vast majority of people are morons or blingers or both, and have no business driving these cars anyway. If that makes prices drop, then so be it. I am just glad these cars are ending up in the hands of worthy owners.
#80
08-29-2005, 08:13 AM
Re: respectfully disagree
Originally posted by deanger
The 993TT is no 959. The AWD system is archaic by compairison. No car will ever have the AWD system of the of 959 -- it is impossible to reproduce. The feel of the steering is subsequently lame by compairison. My 959 gleeful passed a befuddled 993TT owner in the freezing rain/snow near Big Bear thanks to the snow program on the four away adjustable traction control. I rasied the car up to avoid snow drifts just in case. Not to mention if I decide to run at 130 mph for a few hours Ive got the tire pressure monitoring system to to warn me if anything is going wrong with my run flat tires. If my windshield is hit by debris, I don't have to worry, as it is made of a special shatterproof non-glass based material. and if my *** is getting sore I can simply soften the shocks. Shall I go on?
Now, this is not to say the 993TT and the Turbo R variant aren't awesome. They are two of the best cars on the planet. And of course, modern cars are improvements in many ways. Then again, Bruce Canepa makes a few modern modifications to the 959 and ends up with a 3.2 sec 0-62 beast because the 959 engine is capable of huge HP as witnessed in its Lemans variants. This aided by the fact that the air cooled engine is assisted by liquid cooling of the cylinder heads. The car's stability is stunning, due to the fact that it has a zero lift design.
Another great feature of the 959 very few people know is that its warning systems include combinations of lights and various buzzers. Why is this good? Because it allows you to instantly get a sense of how bad a problem you might be having. None of this "check engine" crap. That is not helpful at 145 in the Sahara. How bad is the problem? In the 959 you know at once if it is something that requires immediate attention, or is something you can try to fix in an hour or in a week.
Oh, and BTW -- 283 made total including non-conforming prototypes.
Was and always will be THE pinnacle of 911 engineering. Unless Porsche decides to top it. Which I wish they would.
Frankly, who on earth would prefer to own a 993 of any kind over a 959?
The 993TT is no 959. The AWD system is archaic by compairison. No car will ever have the AWD system of the of 959 -- it is impossible to reproduce. The feel of the steering is subsequently lame by compairison. My 959 gleeful passed a befuddled 993TT owner in the freezing rain/snow near Big Bear thanks to the snow program on the four away adjustable traction control. I rasied the car up to avoid snow drifts just in case. Not to mention if I decide to run at 130 mph for a few hours Ive got the tire pressure monitoring system to to warn me if anything is going wrong with my run flat tires. If my windshield is hit by debris, I don't have to worry, as it is made of a special shatterproof non-glass based material. and if my *** is getting sore I can simply soften the shocks. Shall I go on?
Now, this is not to say the 993TT and the Turbo R variant aren't awesome. They are two of the best cars on the planet. And of course, modern cars are improvements in many ways. Then again, Bruce Canepa makes a few modern modifications to the 959 and ends up with a 3.2 sec 0-62 beast because the 959 engine is capable of huge HP as witnessed in its Lemans variants. This aided by the fact that the air cooled engine is assisted by liquid cooling of the cylinder heads. The car's stability is stunning, due to the fact that it has a zero lift design.
Another great feature of the 959 very few people know is that its warning systems include combinations of lights and various buzzers. Why is this good? Because it allows you to instantly get a sense of how bad a problem you might be having. None of this "check engine" crap. That is not helpful at 145 in the Sahara. How bad is the problem? In the 959 you know at once if it is something that requires immediate attention, or is something you can try to fix in an hour or in a week.
Oh, and BTW -- 283 made total including non-conforming prototypes.
Was and always will be THE pinnacle of 911 engineering. Unless Porsche decides to top it. Which I wish they would.
Frankly, who on earth would prefer to own a 993 of any kind over a 959?
#81
08-29-2005, 08:14 AM
Re: Re: Curious definition of failure...
Originally posted by W8MM
Dean,
I have wanted to say many of the same things you said in your post above, but I never got around to it. Maybe if one owns a Carrera GT, one's perspective is different from those who don't/won't, and that's all there is to it.
I, too, tire of all the contorted pseudo-logic applied to convince me that I'm crazy, irrational, or a poor judge of cars just because I fell for Porsche's greedy product planning like a drunk falls into the gutter.
Car-related discussion forums should be lots of fun, but there seems to be something about discussing the Carrera GT that brings out bonus quotas of know-it-alls bent on instructing the rest of the world what a bad deal Porsche gave us. Some of the most vituperative rants started even before the first customer car had been delivered.
I think Porsche upset the common order of brand identity with the CGT. It used to be that Italian exotics were very expensive and stirred passions as well as guaranteed status. Everybody knows that Ferraris and Lambos are the "safe" choice for a thrilling vehicle of beauty, plus outward indications of financial fortitude.
Porsches, on the other hand, had been the territory of "rational" high performance. They were great to drive, but on a "reasonable" budget, without the connotations of flagrant excess that easily attached in the public eye to the Italian marques.
The Carrera GT did away with that tradition. Now, even a Porsche can cost crazy money, but because it isn't a Ferrari or Lamborghini it doesn't fit the expected mold. This seems to cause a lot of confusion and discomfort among some of the cognoscenti.
The result of this positioning confusion soldiers on, disguised as a scholarly discourse of all the perceived faults of the Carrera GT. To me, as an owner, this uninformed speculation is almost always amusing but it sometimes crosses over the line into thinly veiled insult, which detracts mightily from any fun I might have in conversing about my car. That part is sort of sad to contemplate. I don't know how it will evolve over time.
My hope is that as more and more posters get some real experience with the car, fewer and fewer will be tempted to call out owners as fools.
But, I guess the world was ever thus.
Dean,
I have wanted to say many of the same things you said in your post above, but I never got around to it. Maybe if one owns a Carrera GT, one's perspective is different from those who don't/won't, and that's all there is to it.
I, too, tire of all the contorted pseudo-logic applied to convince me that I'm crazy, irrational, or a poor judge of cars just because I fell for Porsche's greedy product planning like a drunk falls into the gutter.
Car-related discussion forums should be lots of fun, but there seems to be something about discussing the Carrera GT that brings out bonus quotas of know-it-alls bent on instructing the rest of the world what a bad deal Porsche gave us. Some of the most vituperative rants started even before the first customer car had been delivered.
I think Porsche upset the common order of brand identity with the CGT. It used to be that Italian exotics were very expensive and stirred passions as well as guaranteed status. Everybody knows that Ferraris and Lambos are the "safe" choice for a thrilling vehicle of beauty, plus outward indications of financial fortitude.
Porsches, on the other hand, had been the territory of "rational" high performance. They were great to drive, but on a "reasonable" budget, without the connotations of flagrant excess that easily attached in the public eye to the Italian marques.
The Carrera GT did away with that tradition. Now, even a Porsche can cost crazy money, but because it isn't a Ferrari or Lamborghini it doesn't fit the expected mold. This seems to cause a lot of confusion and discomfort among some of the cognoscenti.
The result of this positioning confusion soldiers on, disguised as a scholarly discourse of all the perceived faults of the Carrera GT. To me, as an owner, this uninformed speculation is almost always amusing but it sometimes crosses over the line into thinly veiled insult, which detracts mightily from any fun I might have in conversing about my car. That part is sort of sad to contemplate. I don't know how it will evolve over time.
My hope is that as more and more posters get some real experience with the car, fewer and fewer will be tempted to call out owners as fools.
But, I guess the world was ever thus.
I am trying to get some experience with the car but you have to give me a ride for that to happen! When should I come over?
#82
08-29-2005, 08:16 AM
Originally posted by Hamann7
Dean and Mike, I couldn't agree with you more. I think it comes down to the fact that some people on this board are trying to talk themselves out of buying one since the temptation is so strong or they are resentful about the fact that they can't afford to buy or run a CGT, so they just put the car down so they can feel better about their inferior vehicles.
Hey, what can you do, there will always be haters.
I, for one, believe the CGT is the best car on the planet today, especially for its price.
It is one of the few (and I do mean FEW) cars that made me a little sad when I had to step into my measly little GT2 after spending half a day riding around in a CGT...
Dean, you have to do it! Are you going buy our friend's car?
I hope you will give me a ride in it sometime.
Dean and Mike, I couldn't agree with you more. I think it comes down to the fact that some people on this board are trying to talk themselves out of buying one since the temptation is so strong or they are resentful about the fact that they can't afford to buy or run a CGT, so they just put the car down so they can feel better about their inferior vehicles.
Hey, what can you do, there will always be haters.
I, for one, believe the CGT is the best car on the planet today, especially for its price.
It is one of the few (and I do mean FEW) cars that made me a little sad when I had to step into my measly little GT2 after spending half a day riding around in a CGT...
Dean, you have to do it! Are you going buy our friend's car?
I hope you will give me a ride in it sometime.
#83
08-29-2005, 08:52 AM
Originally posted by raygr
Hi Gary,
I paid $45/qt for the "high-performance" version of the Shell oil that was recommended for the 360 CS if one tracks the car. That's what the F dealer said, anyway.
Hi Gary,
I paid $45/qt for the "high-performance" version of the Shell oil that was recommended for the 360 CS if one tracks the car. That's what the F dealer said, anyway.
Gary
#84
08-29-2005, 09:14 AM
Originally posted by Hamann7
...At least the people who know I own the car never seem to mention anything related to price...
...At least the people who know I own the car never seem to mention anything related to price...
...T, I hope it's more of a premonition.
#85
08-29-2005, 08:37 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by cnc
I really hate seeing the kind of post that says the CGT is some kind of failure. It sounds a lot like sour grapes.
[edited out some cheeky remark here...]
The CGT is a home-run, blow-off-the-fireworks marketing success. No question about it.
As for sales success, if they sell the cars they intend to make, then it's a success. I have sat in my dealer's office several times, performing a "locate" on CGTs, and there really aren't that many available. So, I don't know where you are getting your facts, other than Internet rumors.
.....
However, it doesn't change the realities of the marketing, or sales failure (if you want to engage in semantics).
If you don't believe the "failure", visit or have your dealer run a "locate" and determine just how many cars are out there.
However, it doesn't change the realities of the marketing, or sales failure (if you want to engage in semantics).
If you don't believe the "failure", visit or have your dealer run a "locate" and determine just how many cars are out there.
[edited out some cheeky remark here...]
The CGT is a home-run, blow-off-the-fireworks marketing success. No question about it.
As for sales success, if they sell the cars they intend to make, then it's a success. I have sat in my dealer's office several times, performing a "locate" on CGTs, and there really aren't that many available. So, I don't know where you are getting your facts, other than Internet rumors.
Last edited by raygr; 08-30-2005 at 05:54 PM.
#86
08-29-2005, 08:59 PM
Originally posted by deanger
...The only other crazy money Porsche was the 959 and they didn't even bother selling to Americans and they sold it at a loss...
...The only other crazy money Porsche was the 959 and they didn't even bother selling to Americans and they sold it at a loss...
Don't forget about the 911 GT1. It costs more than the 959 & CGT combined.
Greg A
#87
08-29-2005, 09:42 PM
Originally posted by MarsMan
BTW I am in the market for a McLaren F1, if anyone knows of one for sale please let me know. This is the only car that I would rather have than the CGT, luckily I am planning on owning both.
BTW I am in the market for a McLaren F1, if anyone knows of one for sale please let me know. This is the only car that I would rather have than the CGT, luckily I am planning on owning both.
You Sir are someone i will be thoroughly jealous of when you do get that McLaren F1, first the MV agusta in the perfect colours then the CGT and potentially an F1!!! I hope you do get it for you will be living my dream.
#88
08-29-2005, 09:45 PM
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Re: Why I don't buy a CGT
Originally posted by Bill S
1. The car was designed from a unproven prototype that never raced. That missing "history" made the car less exciting for me. I believe the car still has many remnants of the prototyping phase, like bolted front and rear sections.
15. It's difficult to take the car on a long trip due to its lack of storage, especially when you have the top stored, as you would for a long trip.
16. Wife informed me I would have to make major renovations to the dog house. Damn, I am so whipped.
1. The car was designed from a unproven prototype that never raced. That missing "history" made the car less exciting for me. I believe the car still has many remnants of the prototyping phase, like bolted front and rear sections.
15. It's difficult to take the car on a long trip due to its lack of storage, especially when you have the top stored, as you would for a long trip.
16. Wife informed me I would have to make major renovations to the dog house. Damn, I am so whipped.
#89
08-30-2005, 03:28 AM
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It's so funny to read how some people are thinking about money and nothing else...
People, live is so short, live your dreams and forget about the financing aspect of the things for at least few minutes a day
I bet you will feel better
People, live is so short, live your dreams and forget about the financing aspect of the things for at least few minutes a day
I bet you will feel better
#90
08-30-2005, 01:14 PM
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Originally posted by Boyko23
It's so funny to read how some people are thinking about money and nothing else...
People, live is so short, live your dreams and forget about the financing aspect of the things for at least few minutes a day I bet you will feel better
It's so funny to read how some people are thinking about money and nothing else...
People, live is so short, live your dreams and forget about the financing aspect of the things for at least few minutes a day
I bet you will feel better
Personally I can't stop thinking about the picture that Life Dies has with his posts. It is haunting my dreams!!!