Why I don't buy a CGT
#91
08-30-2005, 04:34 PM
Originally posted by raygr
I really hate seeing the kind of post that says the CGT is some kind of failure. It sounds a lot like sour grapes.
Sorry, but if you don't know the difference between "marketing" and "sales", you are probably not qualified to opine on them.
The CGT is a home-run, blow-off-the-fireworks marketing success. No question about it.
As for sales success, if they sell the cars they intend to make, then it's a success. I have sat in my dealer's office several times, performing a "locate" on CGTs, and there really aren't that many available. So, I don't know where you are getting your facts, other than Internet rumors.
I really hate seeing the kind of post that says the CGT is some kind of failure. It sounds a lot like sour grapes.
Sorry, but if you don't know the difference between "marketing" and "sales", you are probably not qualified to opine on them.
The CGT is a home-run, blow-off-the-fireworks marketing success. No question about it.
As for sales success, if they sell the cars they intend to make, then it's a success. I have sat in my dealer's office several times, performing a "locate" on CGTs, and there really aren't that many available. So, I don't know where you are getting your facts, other than Internet rumors.
From a sales and marketing standpoint, the resale value of the CGT trumps all other considerations. Using this as a benchmark, it probably is a failure. HOWEVER, from a performance standpoint it is a resounding success.
BTW, I was told by a pretty good source that one dealer ordered 8 CGT's using his own money as deposits assuming he was going to sell them all. When time came to take delivery he ate the deposit believing he could not sell any of them unless he discounted them substantially. Rather than take the hit in floor plan financing he determined it was cheaper to lose the $400,000.
#92
08-30-2005, 05:33 PM
... and that added 8 extra cars to the supply chain that were not allocated to a final customer ... he out smarted his own *** and helped screw up the sales forcast.
Last edited by ciggy1; 08-30-2005 at 06:10 PM.
#93
08-30-2005, 05:51 PM
Originally posted by nberry
Ray FWIW, according to another post there are 31 CGT's for sale in Autotrader. That represents about 10% of the total in the US.
From a sales and marketing standpoint, the resale value of the CGT trumps all other considerations. Using this as a benchmark, it probably is a failure. HOWEVER, from a performance standpoint it is a resounding success.
BTW, I was told by a pretty good source that one dealer ordered 8 CGT's using his own money as deposits assuming he was going to sell them all. When time came to take delivery he ate the deposit believing he could not sell any of them unless he discounted them substantially. Rather than take the hit in floor plan financing he determined it was cheaper to lose the $400,000.
Ray FWIW, according to another post there are 31 CGT's for sale in Autotrader. That represents about 10% of the total in the US.
From a sales and marketing standpoint, the resale value of the CGT trumps all other considerations. Using this as a benchmark, it probably is a failure. HOWEVER, from a performance standpoint it is a resounding success.
BTW, I was told by a pretty good source that one dealer ordered 8 CGT's using his own money as deposits assuming he was going to sell them all. When time came to take delivery he ate the deposit believing he could not sell any of them unless he discounted them substantially. Rather than take the hit in floor plan financing he determined it was cheaper to lose the $400,000.
Finally, what that dealer did typifies the problem - greedy dealers over-booked orders, when they did not have customers, thus creating an imbalance. So, now you have a situation where some dealers have cars they want to dump (i.e. discount), while other dealers have actual customer orders, and are still selling cars for MSRP to customers. I think it's way too early to declare it a failure, as this market is in flux right now.
#94
08-31-2005, 08:40 PM
Originally posted by Hamann7
Bill,
The AWD system on the 993 is far less sophisticated and capable (but perhaps more reliable) than the 959's. In fact, the 964 C4's system is a derivative of the 959's system but they went to a simpler mechanical rather than fully electronic system due to reliability concerns. The system in the 959 is still considered advanced even today, as among its other features it has infinitely variable torque split through a much wider range between the front and rear wheels, i.e. 80% to the rear wheels under normal conditions and up to 50/50 under slippery conditions. It is also the only system to constantly adjust the torque split constantly under normal driving conditions, unlike the vicscous coupling system on the 993 and 996.
Porsche uses a system of locking clutches, which unlike other implementations of AWD, the 959's torque split varied under no slip conditions. i.e. in the 993 and other AWD systems, the split is fixed at a certain ratio until slip occurs, after which the various limited slip devices would begin to alter the split. In the 959, the AWD computer is fed information from many sources, including throttle position, steering angle, g force accelerometers and even the turbo boost gauge. For example when you go full throttle in a straight line, the system will send up to 80% of the power (from a normal 40 front/60 rear split) to the rear wheels, even if all 4 wheels are turning at exactly the same speed. Far and away the most complex AWD system implemented!
Perhaps the bling bling drag racers should stop wasting their time making 1000hp 996TT's and start modifying 959s instead.
A properly set up 959 is still an awesome car by today's standards. A modified one will blow away most of the 996 Turbos on this board with ease.
Bill,
The AWD system on the 993 is far less sophisticated and capable (but perhaps more reliable) than the 959's. In fact, the 964 C4's system is a derivative of the 959's system but they went to a simpler mechanical rather than fully electronic system due to reliability concerns. The system in the 959 is still considered advanced even today, as among its other features it has infinitely variable torque split through a much wider range between the front and rear wheels, i.e. 80% to the rear wheels under normal conditions and up to 50/50 under slippery conditions. It is also the only system to constantly adjust the torque split constantly under normal driving conditions, unlike the vicscous coupling system on the 993 and 996.
Porsche uses a system of locking clutches, which unlike other implementations of AWD, the 959's torque split varied under no slip conditions. i.e. in the 993 and other AWD systems, the split is fixed at a certain ratio until slip occurs, after which the various limited slip devices would begin to alter the split. In the 959, the AWD computer is fed information from many sources, including throttle position, steering angle, g force accelerometers and even the turbo boost gauge. For example when you go full throttle in a straight line, the system will send up to 80% of the power (from a normal 40 front/60 rear split) to the rear wheels, even if all 4 wheels are turning at exactly the same speed. Far and away the most complex AWD system implemented!
Perhaps the bling bling drag racers should stop wasting their time making 1000hp 996TT's and start modifying 959s instead.
A properly set up 959 is still an awesome car by today's standards. A modified one will blow away most of the 996 Turbos on this board with ease.
Its technology is now old, although that doesn't matter much to the collectors. It was very far ahead of it's time in the 80s. Today, the Japanese (e.g., G35 and FX45) have AWD systems that vary torque continuously (using computer-controlled electromagnetic clutches with viscous fluid and multiple plates) from 0/100 to 50/50 using lateral and longitudinal G-sensors, wheel speed sensors, yaw rate sensors, and many other inputs into very powerful on-board computers to learn and execute torque needs depending on many factors. These systems are far more advanced, cheaper, lighter, compact and reliable than what's in the 959. Kind of like an old Radio Shack computer compared to today's laptops. And that's not a surprise, considering how far auto technology has advanced since 1985. The ABS systems in today's AWD cars also work with electronic drive-by-wire and other acceleration controls (like timing retard) to quickly limit wheel spin and maintain vehicle stability under all driving conditions. The software to control torque split, acceleration and braking is really amazing. We know alot more today about AWD and how it should work then we did back then. And today's faster computers, servos and actuators let us do it almost as good as the math says it should be done.
I agree that the 993 TT system is simple in comparison. It only varies torque mechanically when a wheel starts spinning. However, it's very effective, reliable and elegantly simple. Also, few people know about the 993 TT ASD which uses the ABS and wheel speed sensors to help prevent any one or more wheels from spinning while accelerating on slippery road surfaces.
Last edited by Bill S; 08-31-2005 at 09:01 PM.
#95
09-03-2005, 12:37 PM
Some of my buddies are a bit upset with me posting this thread. Rather than delete any good info, here's what I really like about the CGT:
1. It's obviously something that few people can own, and will impress most people's families, friends and neighbors, especially when they find out how much it costs. MUCH more people can own a Z06 or 996TT.
2. For the track, I don't believe there's another exotic car (except maybe an Enzo or McLaren) that would be as fun to drive and show off to your friends.
3. No other car will have the "explosive" feeling of acceleration when you first step on the accelerator. The lightweight engine components, clutch and driveshaft all contribute to this feeling and more than make up for the relatively low torque.
4. No other powerful exotic, except an Enzo, will handle like the CGT on the turns. The Elise, Radicals and maybe even the new Z06 can keep up, but they don't accelerate as well and are obviously less impressive to own.
5. It's the only really nice convertible that's available with this performance.
6. It's built with the legendary Porsche quality and reliability. I'm certain the car is bullet-proof and will not loosen-up or get any squeaks or rattles.
7. People who know the car will be hypnotized by it when you drive by. Watch out for those people!
1. It's obviously something that few people can own, and will impress most people's families, friends and neighbors, especially when they find out how much it costs. MUCH more people can own a Z06 or 996TT.
2. For the track, I don't believe there's another exotic car (except maybe an Enzo or McLaren) that would be as fun to drive and show off to your friends.
3. No other car will have the "explosive" feeling of acceleration when you first step on the accelerator. The lightweight engine components, clutch and driveshaft all contribute to this feeling and more than make up for the relatively low torque.
4. No other powerful exotic, except an Enzo, will handle like the CGT on the turns. The Elise, Radicals and maybe even the new Z06 can keep up, but they don't accelerate as well and are obviously less impressive to own.
5. It's the only really nice convertible that's available with this performance.
6. It's built with the legendary Porsche quality and reliability. I'm certain the car is bullet-proof and will not loosen-up or get any squeaks or rattles.
7. People who know the car will be hypnotized by it when you drive by. Watch out for those people!
#96
09-03-2005, 01:00 PM
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Originally posted by Bill S
Some of my buddies are a bit upset with me posting this thread. Rather than delete any good info, here's what I really like about the CGT:
1. It's obviously something that few people can own, and will impress most people's families, friends and neighbors, especially when they find out how much it costs. MUCH more people can own a Z06 or 996TT.
2. For the track, I don't believe there's another exotic car (except maybe an Enzo or McLaren) that would be as fun to drive and show off to your friends.
3. No other car will have the "explosive" feeling of acceleration when you first step on the accelerator. The lightweight engine components, clutch and driveshaft all contribute to this feeling and more than make up for the relatively low torque.
4. No other powerful exotic, except an Enzo, will handle like the CGT on the turns. The Elise, Radicals and maybe even the new Z06 can keep up, but they don't accelerate as well and are obviously less impressive to own.
5. It's the only really nice convertible that's available with this performance.
6. It's built with the legendary Porsche quality and reliability. I'm certain the car is bullet-proof and will not loosen-up or get any squeaks or rattles.
7. People who know the car will be hypnotized by it when you drive by. Watch out for those people!
Some of my buddies are a bit upset with me posting this thread. Rather than delete any good info, here's what I really like about the CGT:
1. It's obviously something that few people can own, and will impress most people's families, friends and neighbors, especially when they find out how much it costs. MUCH more people can own a Z06 or 996TT.
2. For the track, I don't believe there's another exotic car (except maybe an Enzo or McLaren) that would be as fun to drive and show off to your friends.
3. No other car will have the "explosive" feeling of acceleration when you first step on the accelerator. The lightweight engine components, clutch and driveshaft all contribute to this feeling and more than make up for the relatively low torque.
4. No other powerful exotic, except an Enzo, will handle like the CGT on the turns. The Elise, Radicals and maybe even the new Z06 can keep up, but they don't accelerate as well and are obviously less impressive to own.
5. It's the only really nice convertible that's available with this performance.
6. It's built with the legendary Porsche quality and reliability. I'm certain the car is bullet-proof and will not loosen-up or get any squeaks or rattles.
7. People who know the car will be hypnotized by it when you drive by. Watch out for those people!
please don't delete it or even think about it.
it was a pleasure meeting u down in SD and knowing if not because we're car nuts we wouldn't have chance to meet. i guess there's always a passion behind what we own & drive. i enjoy reading every aspects of information on any car & certainly respect others opinion. i can't speak for others but please don't take it personally if i offended u in any way. like i said, it's a passion that makes me want to own a CGT not its performance. u can't throw a price tag on passion, can u?
#99
09-03-2005, 01:35 PM
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Originally posted by cnc
Porsche did, and it seems they set it too high!
Porsche did, and it seems they set it too high!
#100
09-03-2005, 01:38 PM
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Re: Re: Curious definition of failure...
Originally posted by W8MM
Dean,
I have wanted to say many of the same things you said in your post above, but I never got around to it. Maybe if one owns a Carrera GT, one's perspective is different from those who don't/won't, and that's all there is to it.
I, too, tire of all the contorted pseudo-logic applied to convince me that I'm crazy, irrational, or a poor judge of cars just because I fell for Porsche's greedy product planning like a drunk falls into the gutter.
Car-related discussion forums should be lots of fun, but there seems to be something about discussing the Carrera GT that brings out bonus quotas of know-it-alls bent on instructing the rest of the world what a bad deal Porsche gave us. Some of the most vituperative rants started even before the first customer car had been delivered.
I think Porsche upset the common order of brand identity with the CGT. It used to be that Italian exotics were very expensive and stirred passions as well as guaranteed status. Everybody knows that Ferraris and Lambos are the "safe" choice for a thrilling vehicle of beauty, plus outward indications of financial fortitude.
Porsches, on the other hand, had been the territory of "rational" high performance. They were great to drive, but on a "reasonable" budget, without the connotations of flagrant excess that easily attached in the public eye to the Italian marques.
The Carrera GT did away with that tradition. Now, even a Porsche can cost crazy money, but because it isn't a Ferrari or Lamborghini it doesn't fit the expected mold. This seems to cause a lot of confusion and discomfort among some of the cognoscenti.
The result of this positioning confusion soldiers on, disguised as a scholarly discourse of all the perceived faults of the Carrera GT. To me, as an owner, this uninformed speculation is almost always amusing but it sometimes crosses over the line into thinly veiled insult, which detracts mightily from any fun I might have in conversing about my car. That part is sort of sad to contemplate. I don't know how it will evolve over time.
My hope is that as more and more posters get some real experience with the car, fewer and fewer will be tempted to call out owners as fools.
But, I guess the world was ever thus.
Dean,
I have wanted to say many of the same things you said in your post above, but I never got around to it. Maybe if one owns a Carrera GT, one's perspective is different from those who don't/won't, and that's all there is to it.
I, too, tire of all the contorted pseudo-logic applied to convince me that I'm crazy, irrational, or a poor judge of cars just because I fell for Porsche's greedy product planning like a drunk falls into the gutter.
Car-related discussion forums should be lots of fun, but there seems to be something about discussing the Carrera GT that brings out bonus quotas of know-it-alls bent on instructing the rest of the world what a bad deal Porsche gave us. Some of the most vituperative rants started even before the first customer car had been delivered.
I think Porsche upset the common order of brand identity with the CGT. It used to be that Italian exotics were very expensive and stirred passions as well as guaranteed status. Everybody knows that Ferraris and Lambos are the "safe" choice for a thrilling vehicle of beauty, plus outward indications of financial fortitude.
Porsches, on the other hand, had been the territory of "rational" high performance. They were great to drive, but on a "reasonable" budget, without the connotations of flagrant excess that easily attached in the public eye to the Italian marques.
The Carrera GT did away with that tradition. Now, even a Porsche can cost crazy money, but because it isn't a Ferrari or Lamborghini it doesn't fit the expected mold. This seems to cause a lot of confusion and discomfort among some of the cognoscenti.
The result of this positioning confusion soldiers on, disguised as a scholarly discourse of all the perceived faults of the Carrera GT. To me, as an owner, this uninformed speculation is almost always amusing but it sometimes crosses over the line into thinly veiled insult, which detracts mightily from any fun I might have in conversing about my car. That part is sort of sad to contemplate. I don't know how it will evolve over time.
My hope is that as more and more posters get some real experience with the car, fewer and fewer will be tempted to call out owners as fools.
But, I guess the world was ever thus.
#101
09-03-2005, 07:26 PM
Originally posted by 20C4S
i can't speak for others but please don't take it personally if i offended u in any way. like i said, it's a passion that makes me want to own a CGT not its performance. u can't throw a price tag on passion, can u?
i can't speak for others but please don't take it personally if i offended u in any way. like i said, it's a passion that makes me want to own a CGT not its performance. u can't throw a price tag on passion, can u?
#102
09-04-2005, 08:48 AM
FWIW -- I've read several references to "showing off" or impressing friends with "how much it costs".
These words are exactly the opposite of why anyone buys a CGT. There is no better driving car on the planet that you can use on public roads. That is why people buy it. "Showing off" "how much it costs"
I am stunned by these comments. They suggest a level of malice towards the car and its owners heretofore unseen by me.
This is the best road car on the planet right now. Every magazine picks it. Everyone I know who was personally logged more than 100 miles of DRIVERS' SEAT TIME agreees.
Regardless, if your #1 reason why the car is good is because you could impress your friends. Do us all a favor and please DO NOT get one.
Ever.
These words are exactly the opposite of why anyone buys a CGT. There is no better driving car on the planet that you can use on public roads. That is why people buy it. "Showing off" "how much it costs"
I am stunned by these comments. They suggest a level of malice towards the car and its owners heretofore unseen by me.
This is the best road car on the planet right now. Every magazine picks it. Everyone I know who was personally logged more than 100 miles of DRIVERS' SEAT TIME agreees.
Regardless, if your #1 reason why the car is good is because you could impress your friends. Do us all a favor and please DO NOT get one.
Ever.
#103
09-04-2005, 11:29 AM
Originally posted by deanger
These words are exactly the opposite of why anyone buys a CGT.
These words are exactly the opposite of why anyone buys a CGT.
Last edited by Bill S; 09-04-2005 at 11:41 AM.
#104
09-04-2005, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by deanger
FWIW -- I've read several references to "showing off" or impressing friends with "how much it costs".
These words are exactly the opposite of why anyone buys a CGT. There is no better driving car on the planet that you can use on public roads. That is why people buy it....
...This is the best road car on the planet right now. Every magazine picks it. Everyone I know who was personally logged more than 100 miles of DRIVERS' SEAT TIME agreees.
FWIW -- I've read several references to "showing off" or impressing friends with "how much it costs".
These words are exactly the opposite of why anyone buys a CGT. There is no better driving car on the planet that you can use on public roads. That is why people buy it....
...This is the best road car on the planet right now. Every magazine picks it. Everyone I know who was personally logged more than 100 miles of DRIVERS' SEAT TIME agreees.
Deanger, you said: "There is no reason to buy a CGT or any other car that one could say is more rational than another. There are plenty of things I could say about every car I've owned. Reason? What does reason really have to do with it? It is ALL SUBJECTIVE."
#105
09-04-2005, 01:40 PM
Although I agree that there will always be "poser" buyers who want the latest and the greatest car parked on their driveway, I think that the CGT is much less likely to attract such people simply because of its uncompromising race car feel and drive. With the constant evolution of the F1/E-gear transmission, I think a so called "poser" will be much more apt to buy a Gallardo, Murcielago, F430 or the automatic Mclaren-Mercedes SLR before even considering a CGT. BTW, They are all great cars in my book and I would gladly welcome owning all of them.
I have 3700+ miles on my car now and I can confidently say that it is by far the greatest driving experience I have come across. It has simply created a whole new stratosphere of expectations for me in terms of production road cars. Everything else is not one but at least two or in some cases three levels below it. Just my 0.02 of course.
Amir
I have 3700+ miles on my car now and I can confidently say that it is by far the greatest driving experience I have come across. It has simply created a whole new stratosphere of expectations for me in terms of production road cars. Everything else is not one but at least two or in some cases three levels below it. Just my 0.02 of course.
Amir