opinions on going 19" on gt3
#31
08-14-2006, 02:33 PM
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Seattle
Posts: 43
Rep Power: 21 
Originally Posted by Faast996TT
I am assuming that this GT3 is being used like many others. Limited driving during the week on the street, typically as a 2nd or 3rd car. Used for DE and open track days on the weekends, typically with Michellin PS Cups or some other R compound tire on 18's. Correct?
If that is the case, then going with a lightweight forged 19" wheel for the street with the proper tire combo is not the mortal sin everyone says it is. If on the other hand, your daily commute is timed and you are looking for a personal best, then stick with the 18's.
If that is the case, then going with a lightweight forged 19" wheel for the street with the proper tire combo is not the mortal sin everyone says it is. If on the other hand, your daily commute is timed and you are looking for a personal best, then stick with the 18's.
#32
08-14-2006, 02:51 PM
Originally Posted by Faast996TT
If that is the case, then going with a lightweight forged 19" wheel for the street with the proper tire combo is not the mortal sin everyone says it is. If on the other hand, your daily commute is timed and you are looking for a personal best, then stick with the 18's.
repped
#33
08-15-2006, 01:11 AM
Wishful thinking is your belief that 19" belongs on a GT3.
Your rebuttal shows your lack of knowledge about suspension, handling, or even performance in general.
Do you even track your GT3 regularly?
Your rebuttal shows your lack of knowledge about suspension, handling, or even performance in general.
Do you even track your GT3 regularly?
Originally Posted by zona
Let me see if this foolish, simplistic mind can respond to some of your points.............
1) The GT3RSC 3.6 w/ 19's was faster than the GT3RS w/18's do some research and compare the laptimes through the years! The 3.8 only improved the lap times by a second!
2) Lets look at the facts, this race only happens at Hockenheim, so bringing in another "if this would have happened at this track" is wishful thinking.
3) I don't really care how fast the car would be on MPSC, BECAUSE ITS NOT USING THEM!
4) This is a race car used basiclly for one event a year-enough said!
5) All your othe comments are really comparing apples to rocks, different cars, tracks, setups, tires conditions...........wishful thinking again!
For a street car 19's are fine and in the near future 19's will be fine for racing!
1) The GT3RSC 3.6 w/ 19's was faster than the GT3RS w/18's do some research and compare the laptimes through the years! The 3.8 only improved the lap times by a second!
2) Lets look at the facts, this race only happens at Hockenheim, so bringing in another "if this would have happened at this track" is wishful thinking.
3) I don't really care how fast the car would be on MPSC, BECAUSE ITS NOT USING THEM!
4) This is a race car used basiclly for one event a year-enough said!
5) All your othe comments are really comparing apples to rocks, different cars, tracks, setups, tires conditions...........wishful thinking again!
For a street car 19's are fine and in the near future 19's will be fine for racing!
#34
08-15-2006, 08:54 AM
Well.........if you personally knew me then you could comment on my performance knowledge, but since you don't-STOP!
BTW- since your curious I have over 2 decades owning/driving formula fords up to formula atlantics as wells as GT1,2 and 3 sedans and currently have an active FIA racing license. Oh I almost forgot the two years as a machinist for a top CART team. So I might know a little car setup and performance. How many professional races did you say you have participated in?
The 19's on a GT3 is a personal preference, it has little affect on a street car!
What does tracking my gt3 have to do with this thread? This original discussion was about alternate wheels/tires for the street.....period! The poster is using 18's for the track and never mentioned the use of 19's for this purpose!
-z
BTW- since your curious I have over 2 decades owning/driving formula fords up to formula atlantics as wells as GT1,2 and 3 sedans and currently have an active FIA racing license. Oh I almost forgot the two years as a machinist for a top CART team. So I might know a little car setup and performance. How many professional races did you say you have participated in?
The 19's on a GT3 is a personal preference, it has little affect on a street car!
What does tracking my gt3 have to do with this thread? This original discussion was about alternate wheels/tires for the street.....period! The poster is using 18's for the track and never mentioned the use of 19's for this purpose!
-z
Originally Posted by Hamann7
Wishful thinking is your belief that 19" belongs on a GT3.
Your rebuttal shows your lack of knowledge about suspension, handling, or even performance in general.
Do you even track your GT3 regularly?
Your rebuttal shows your lack of knowledge about suspension, handling, or even performance in general.
Do you even track your GT3 regularly?
#35
08-15-2006, 05:28 PM
All that so-called experience and still such ignorance enough to recommend 19's on a 996 GT3. What a waste.
If a GT3 is driven hard on the street (i.e. canyon roads, freeway onramps/offramps) then the breakaway characteristics of a 19" tire will be further amplified and bumpsteer conditions further exacerbated, since most of these surfaces on public roads are not nearly as smooth as well-maintained race tracks. Did you also consider that you CANNOT get 19" tires in Porsche-approved N-spec, further adding to the problem of driving it on the street?
I may not be a pro racer, but the difference is that I learn from the best of the best in Porsche racing and practice what I preach.
Do you even own a GT3? You sound more like a 996TT guy. I'll remember to call you when I want to fit 22's with spinners on my next ride.
If a GT3 is driven hard on the street (i.e. canyon roads, freeway onramps/offramps) then the breakaway characteristics of a 19" tire will be further amplified and bumpsteer conditions further exacerbated, since most of these surfaces on public roads are not nearly as smooth as well-maintained race tracks. Did you also consider that you CANNOT get 19" tires in Porsche-approved N-spec, further adding to the problem of driving it on the street?
I may not be a pro racer, but the difference is that I learn from the best of the best in Porsche racing and practice what I preach.
Do you even own a GT3? You sound more like a 996TT guy. I'll remember to call you when I want to fit 22's with spinners on my next ride.
#36
08-16-2006, 01:50 AM
Lets just agree to disagree!
But I will give you some advice. Members use this board to gain knowledge and share the Porsche experience. Know one should be giving advice on complicated subjects like suspension dynamics without first hand knowledge. It's ok to give your opinion when asked, but in the end its just that......your opinion. Direct insults should not be used, because as in this case you never know the experience of the person you are insulting. Its like bringing a knife to a gun fight and wondering what happened at the end. Your points are well taken, but most are inaccurate and without any concrete data or knowledge to back them up.
As for your points below-
-steet racing is dangerous and irresponsible. It usually leads to an innocent bystanders or passengers getting hurt. Just curious, what does speeding up and down on/off ramps do? Keep your hard driving on the track, its really what this car is designed for!
-What data are you using for breakaway characteristics. I don't believe I have seen any comparing all brands and sizes with every car. You see every tire has different characterstics and although the construction has alot to do with this, many other factors play a part in this. Air pressure, chassis rigidity, camber, jounce/ rebound shock settings through the entire arch of suspension travel and body roll and many others will impact the breakaway limit. The same tire will give different characteristics depending on the whole package!
- What bumpsteer conditions? This is a condition of suspension component design. Keeping the overall wheel/ tire diameter, width and weight will really have no affect. To have zero bumpsteer the tie rod must fall between an imaginary line that runs from the upper ball joint through the lower ball joint and an imaginary line that runs through the lower control arm pivot. In addition, the centerline of the tie rod must intersect with the instant center created by the lower control arm. Put your car up on a rack, do some more reading and gain some knowledge. The gt3's even set at the euro ride height, have close to zero bumpsteer.
- N0 and N1 rated porsche 19" tires have been readily available for a year. You can imagine the litigation of Porsche owner having a problem with tires that are not Porsche approved.
- I agree, Porsche Motorsports is one of the best. But I am not quite sure that reading magizines and books is the same as truely understanding the inner workings of these fantastic cars. Two words= hands on!
- Oh.....I also agree that you probibly listen to yourself very well
- Not quite sure what 22' with spinners have to do with anything
BTW- kennasbimmer purchesed 19"s, so he was not saved from the dark side
I would say that the only real Evangelist/Experts are the engineers that designed these
vehicles, and so far I have not seen their input on the forum!
I hope this is over and done with, I have a 996tt engine to teardown.......now where's that book with all the pictures!
-z
But I will give you some advice. Members use this board to gain knowledge and share the Porsche experience. Know one should be giving advice on complicated subjects like suspension dynamics without first hand knowledge. It's ok to give your opinion when asked, but in the end its just that......your opinion. Direct insults should not be used, because as in this case you never know the experience of the person you are insulting. Its like bringing a knife to a gun fight and wondering what happened at the end. Your points are well taken, but most are inaccurate and without any concrete data or knowledge to back them up.
As for your points below-
-steet racing is dangerous and irresponsible. It usually leads to an innocent bystanders or passengers getting hurt. Just curious, what does speeding up and down on/off ramps do? Keep your hard driving on the track, its really what this car is designed for!
-What data are you using for breakaway characteristics. I don't believe I have seen any comparing all brands and sizes with every car. You see every tire has different characterstics and although the construction has alot to do with this, many other factors play a part in this. Air pressure, chassis rigidity, camber, jounce/ rebound shock settings through the entire arch of suspension travel and body roll and many others will impact the breakaway limit. The same tire will give different characteristics depending on the whole package!
- What bumpsteer conditions? This is a condition of suspension component design. Keeping the overall wheel/ tire diameter, width and weight will really have no affect. To have zero bumpsteer the tie rod must fall between an imaginary line that runs from the upper ball joint through the lower ball joint and an imaginary line that runs through the lower control arm pivot. In addition, the centerline of the tie rod must intersect with the instant center created by the lower control arm. Put your car up on a rack, do some more reading and gain some knowledge. The gt3's even set at the euro ride height, have close to zero bumpsteer.
- N0 and N1 rated porsche 19" tires have been readily available for a year. You can imagine the litigation of Porsche owner having a problem with tires that are not Porsche approved.
- I agree, Porsche Motorsports is one of the best. But I am not quite sure that reading magizines and books is the same as truely understanding the inner workings of these fantastic cars. Two words= hands on!
- Oh.....I also agree that you probibly listen to yourself very well
- Not quite sure what 22' with spinners have to do with anything
BTW- kennasbimmer purchesed 19"s, so he was not saved from the dark side
I would say that the only real Evangelist/Experts are the engineers that designed these
vehicles, and so far I have not seen their input on the forum!
I hope this is over and done with, I have a 996tt engine to teardown.......now where's that book with all the pictures!
-z
Originally Posted by Hamann7
All that so-called experience and still such ignorance enough to recommend 19's on a 996 GT3. What a waste.
If a GT3 is driven hard on the street (i.e. canyon roads, freeway onramps/offramps) then the breakaway characteristics of a 19" tire will be further amplified and bumpsteer conditions further exacerbated, since most of these surfaces on public roads are not nearly as smooth as well-maintained race tracks. Did you also consider that you CANNOT get 19" tires in Porsche-approved N-spec, further adding to the problem of driving it on the street?
I may not be a pro racer, but the difference is that I learn from the best of the best in Porsche racing and practice what I preach.
Do you even own a GT3? You sound more like a 996TT guy. I'll remember to call you when I want to fit 22's with spinners on my next ride.
If a GT3 is driven hard on the street (i.e. canyon roads, freeway onramps/offramps) then the breakaway characteristics of a 19" tire will be further amplified and bumpsteer conditions further exacerbated, since most of these surfaces on public roads are not nearly as smooth as well-maintained race tracks. Did you also consider that you CANNOT get 19" tires in Porsche-approved N-spec, further adding to the problem of driving it on the street?
I may not be a pro racer, but the difference is that I learn from the best of the best in Porsche racing and practice what I preach.
Do you even own a GT3? You sound more like a 996TT guy. I'll remember to call you when I want to fit 22's with spinners on my next ride.
Last edited by zona; 08-16-2006 at 02:02 AM.
#37
08-16-2006, 01:57 AM
Umm... no first hand knowledge? Did I say I don't take my cars to the track and constantly analyze my tires, wheels, and suspension? You are clearly the one living in the magazine/book world, using the Cargraphic GT3-RSC as your main example when you don't even know a whole lot about its underpinnings. You did not even mention the fact that they trimmed 110kg from the car this year which could have helped handling, NO?
Just because I did not post my resume and who I know/work with in motorsport, does not mean that what I say is opinion or untrue. I am not a pro driver, but I do have my fair share of track experience, and I am friends and have been tuning my suspension with some of the BEST in the business like Cary Eisenlohr of ERP and the crew from White Lightning Racing, the most winning team in ALMS in the last few years.
First of all, according to Porsche the GT3 ride height is the same in the US as the ROW. However, most US cars seem a little higher (but within the 5mm tolerance set by the factory), especially in the front, however this is not the correct ride height spec so most knowledgable owners have the ride height lowered to correct spec when they realign the car. Zero bumpsteer in a GT3 at Euro ride height? Geez, then why did Porsche introduce the 996 GT3-RS in 2004, which has different uprights and mounting points through a new wheel carrier, homologated for the RSR with identical casting? Did you know that the 997 Cup also has a revised geometry through the use of RSR wheel carriers? I guess it must have been gratuitous.
Second, N spec 19" tires are available for 997, which has a TALLER sidewall and thus a larger overall rolling diameter. They are NOT designed for the 996 suspension!!! The fact that you would even bring this up in the context of a 996 GT3 just shows what a moron you are.
I hardly brought a knife to a gunfight, it's just obvious that you don't know jack **** about GT3's so no need to stomp on your ignorance further. Go stick with your bling Turbo buddies and stay away from our GT cars where you are clearly making bad recommendations.
And I do NOT engage in street racing, nor do I need a lecture from you about it. Go read more books, you clearly are reading the wrong stuff.
Just because I did not post my resume and who I know/work with in motorsport, does not mean that what I say is opinion or untrue. I am not a pro driver, but I do have my fair share of track experience, and I am friends and have been tuning my suspension with some of the BEST in the business like Cary Eisenlohr of ERP and the crew from White Lightning Racing, the most winning team in ALMS in the last few years.
First of all, according to Porsche the GT3 ride height is the same in the US as the ROW. However, most US cars seem a little higher (but within the 5mm tolerance set by the factory), especially in the front, however this is not the correct ride height spec so most knowledgable owners have the ride height lowered to correct spec when they realign the car. Zero bumpsteer in a GT3 at Euro ride height? Geez, then why did Porsche introduce the 996 GT3-RS in 2004, which has different uprights and mounting points through a new wheel carrier, homologated for the RSR with identical casting? Did you know that the 997 Cup also has a revised geometry through the use of RSR wheel carriers? I guess it must have been gratuitous.
Second, N spec 19" tires are available for 997, which has a TALLER sidewall and thus a larger overall rolling diameter. They are NOT designed for the 996 suspension!!! The fact that you would even bring this up in the context of a 996 GT3 just shows what a moron you are.
I hardly brought a knife to a gunfight, it's just obvious that you don't know jack **** about GT3's so no need to stomp on your ignorance further. Go stick with your bling Turbo buddies and stay away from our GT cars where you are clearly making bad recommendations.
And I do NOT engage in street racing, nor do I need a lecture from you about it. Go read more books, you clearly are reading the wrong stuff.
Last edited by Hamann7; 08-16-2006 at 02:17 AM.
#39
08-16-2006, 10:18 AM
This is my final post on this subject-
-There is no point in arguing with an idiot. They will just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience...
But................
- Good to hear that you have some track time, everyone should! But a few weekends a year checking air pressures and putting on race tires hardly equates analyzing suspension dynamics!
- Again, hit the little green arrow back icon and I believe you will find out that you actually brought up the Cargraphic issue!
- Now drop down a little bit to some of my observations and you will see I stated that "This is a race car used basiclly for one event a year-enough said!" so naturally the car would be lighter, most race cars are!
- Your quote "Most US cars seem a little higher" thats because they are! Otherwise why "have the ride height lowered to correct spec when they realign the car".
- Again, we are talking about a GT3. If you want to debate the engineering of the RS and RSR ....GREAT! Porsche produces the RS because it has to. You see, a little orginization called the FIA wants manfacturers to produce a limited number of roadgoing cars that will resemble the race cars wishing to race in FIA regulated series. The FIA is a little sensitive about "one off" custom parts not produced for the homologated designed vehicle in some of its classes. So these cars get the approved components strictly intended for racing.
- "Geez, then why did Porsche introduce the 996 GT3-RS in 2004"= because it had too, just like the 997 RS!
- "which has different uprights and mounting points through a new wheel carrier, homologated for the RSR with identical casting?"= Stronger with added adjustibility -its a RACE CAR!
- "Did you know that the 997 Cup also has a revised geometry through the use of RSR wheel carriers?"= your on a roll now!
- You see, all these components are necessary for pure race cars to ensure constant suspension settings and longevity in race conditions. It is my belief that the RSR's are designed first and Porsche decides which parts the FIA will allow in the homologated RS versions.
- As I stated in an earlier response "Race cars are race cars and street cars are street cars and should not be confused."
- "larger overall rolling diameter"......................................... ......AND?
If you have a Porsche memo stating 19's should not be used on 996's then post it! It would save a lot of headaches. Otherwise stop the BS.
Now go back and read my original response. Moron!
-z
-There is no point in arguing with an idiot. They will just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience...
But................
- Good to hear that you have some track time, everyone should! But a few weekends a year checking air pressures and putting on race tires hardly equates analyzing suspension dynamics!
- Again, hit the little green arrow back icon and I believe you will find out that you actually brought up the Cargraphic issue!
- Now drop down a little bit to some of my observations and you will see I stated that "This is a race car used basiclly for one event a year-enough said!" so naturally the car would be lighter, most race cars are!
- Your quote "Most US cars seem a little higher" thats because they are! Otherwise why "have the ride height lowered to correct spec when they realign the car".
- Again, we are talking about a GT3. If you want to debate the engineering of the RS and RSR ....GREAT! Porsche produces the RS because it has to. You see, a little orginization called the FIA wants manfacturers to produce a limited number of roadgoing cars that will resemble the race cars wishing to race in FIA regulated series. The FIA is a little sensitive about "one off" custom parts not produced for the homologated designed vehicle in some of its classes. So these cars get the approved components strictly intended for racing.
- "Geez, then why did Porsche introduce the 996 GT3-RS in 2004"= because it had too, just like the 997 RS!
- "which has different uprights and mounting points through a new wheel carrier, homologated for the RSR with identical casting?"= Stronger with added adjustibility -its a RACE CAR!
- "Did you know that the 997 Cup also has a revised geometry through the use of RSR wheel carriers?"= your on a roll now!
- You see, all these components are necessary for pure race cars to ensure constant suspension settings and longevity in race conditions. It is my belief that the RSR's are designed first and Porsche decides which parts the FIA will allow in the homologated RS versions.
- As I stated in an earlier response "Race cars are race cars and street cars are street cars and should not be confused."
- "larger overall rolling diameter"......................................... ......AND?
If you have a Porsche memo stating 19's should not be used on 996's then post it! It would save a lot of headaches. Otherwise stop the BS.
Now go back and read my original response. Moron!
-z
Originally Posted by Hamann7
Umm... no first hand knowledge? Did I say I don't take my cars to the track and constantly analyze my tires, wheels, and suspension? You are clearly the one living in the magazine/book world, using the Cargraphic GT3-RSC as your main example when you don't even know a whole lot about its underpinnings. You did not even mention the fact that they trimmed 110kg from the car this year which could have helped handling, NO?
Just because I did not post my resume and who I know/work with in motorsport, does not mean that what I say is opinion or untrue. I am not a pro driver, but I do have my fair share of track experience, and I am friends and have been tuning my suspension with some of the BEST in the business like Cary Eisenlohr of ERP and the crew from White Lightning Racing, the most winning team in ALMS in the last few years.
First of all, according to Porsche the GT3 ride height is the same in the US as the ROW. However, most US cars seem a little higher (but within the 5mm tolerance set by the factory), especially in the front, however this is not the correct ride height spec so most knowledgable owners have the ride height lowered to correct spec when they realign the car. Zero bumpsteer in a GT3 at Euro ride height? Geez, then why did Porsche introduce the 996 GT3-RS in 2004, which has different uprights and mounting points through a new wheel carrier, homologated for the RSR with identical casting? Did you know that the 997 Cup also has a revised geometry through the use of RSR wheel carriers? I guess it must have been gratuitous.
Second, N spec 19" tires are available for 997, which has a TALLER sidewall and thus a larger overall rolling diameter. They are NOT designed for the 996 suspension!!! The fact that you would even bring this up in the context of a 996 GT3 just shows what a moron you are.
I hardly brought a knife to a gunfight, it's just obvious that you don't know jack **** about GT3's so no need to stomp on your ignorance further. Go stick with your bling Turbo buddies and stay away from our GT cars where you are clearly making bad recommendations.
And I do NOT engage in street racing, nor do I need a lecture from you about it. Go read more books, you clearly are reading the wrong stuff.
Just because I did not post my resume and who I know/work with in motorsport, does not mean that what I say is opinion or untrue. I am not a pro driver, but I do have my fair share of track experience, and I am friends and have been tuning my suspension with some of the BEST in the business like Cary Eisenlohr of ERP and the crew from White Lightning Racing, the most winning team in ALMS in the last few years.
First of all, according to Porsche the GT3 ride height is the same in the US as the ROW. However, most US cars seem a little higher (but within the 5mm tolerance set by the factory), especially in the front, however this is not the correct ride height spec so most knowledgable owners have the ride height lowered to correct spec when they realign the car. Zero bumpsteer in a GT3 at Euro ride height? Geez, then why did Porsche introduce the 996 GT3-RS in 2004, which has different uprights and mounting points through a new wheel carrier, homologated for the RSR with identical casting? Did you know that the 997 Cup also has a revised geometry through the use of RSR wheel carriers? I guess it must have been gratuitous.
Second, N spec 19" tires are available for 997, which has a TALLER sidewall and thus a larger overall rolling diameter. They are NOT designed for the 996 suspension!!! The fact that you would even bring this up in the context of a 996 GT3 just shows what a moron you are.
I hardly brought a knife to a gunfight, it's just obvious that you don't know jack **** about GT3's so no need to stomp on your ignorance further. Go stick with your bling Turbo buddies and stay away from our GT cars where you are clearly making bad recommendations.
And I do NOT engage in street racing, nor do I need a lecture from you about it. Go read more books, you clearly are reading the wrong stuff.
#40
08-16-2006, 12:42 PM
You must sell 19" wheels for a living... it's you who has made yourself look like the idiotic *******. Your response is .
Now you can start counting the number of customers that you will lose with your arrogance and transparent ignorance. Stick to ******* up Escalades and Navigators... you have exposed yourself for what you are.
I am sure the CGT/GT2/GT3 guys are utterly impressed with you.
.Now you can start counting the number of customers that you will lose with your arrogance and transparent ignorance. Stick to ******* up Escalades and Navigators... you have exposed yourself for what you are.
I am sure the CGT/GT2/GT3 guys are utterly impressed with you.
Last edited by Hamann7; 08-16-2006 at 12:48 PM.
#42
08-16-2006, 12:59 PM
Just as I thought!
Another response that is wrong, senseless, unexplainable garbage that is as clear as mud!
-z
Another response that is wrong, senseless, unexplainable garbage that is as clear as mud!
-z
Originally Posted by Hamann7
You must sell 19" wheels for a living... it's you who has made yourself look like the idiotic *******. Your response is .
Now you can start counting the number of customers that you will lose with your arrogance and transparent ignorance. Stick to ******* up Escalades and Navigators... you have exposed yourself for what you are.
I am sure the CGT/GT2/GT3 guys are utterly impressed with you.
.Now you can start counting the number of customers that you will lose with your arrogance and transparent ignorance. Stick to ******* up Escalades and Navigators... you have exposed yourself for what you are.
I am sure the CGT/GT2/GT3 guys are utterly impressed with you.
#43
08-16-2006, 01:07 PM
Hey Sharky,
Neither did I!
Since you a major player in this field, tell me if I'm missing something. 18's work well on the street and track but 19's work ok on the street, but maybe not so good on the track- depending on setup and equipment.
-z
Neither did I!
Since you a major player in this field, tell me if I'm missing something. 18's work well on the street and track but 19's work ok on the street, but maybe not so good on the track- depending on setup and equipment.
-z
Originally Posted by sharkster
I never even knew there was a debate on 18 vs 19s on a GT3. Wow...
