Go ahead and claim that Lamborghini had more heritage and pedigree when they built their first car. Try and back that up.
Too bad the 2000GT predates that Corolla. Point being that when Toyota starts building their first (limited production) supercar, they will have had far, FAR more heritage and pedigree than Lamborghini when they first started. Refute that.


@ germeezy:
NSX...
Honda built ~14k of those things. Why the hell would it cost as much as an XJ220 or F40?? Considering the volumes, that makes absolutely ZERO sense.

Bentley Continental GT Super Sports...
$267k for a car that will likely get its *** handed to it on a track by a Ferrari Scuderia or 458, which has more pedigree/heritage. Why the hell would anyone defend the purchase of such garbage?


@easy_button:
"GTR performance for 5 times the money is not [interesting] - who built it really does not matter."
LOL, yeah right! I'll bet there are plenty of Euro exotics that fail this litmus test. You can't tell me the performance of the SV, Zonda, Reventon, Koenigsegg, etc is 5+ times better than the GT-R's, can you? How is the Scuderia, offering similar performance to the GT-R yet costing ~3.5x's as much, "interesting?"


Until any of you can state as unequivocal fact that everyone should have the same exact taste in cars, you guys haven't got a leg to stand on. Ever heard of different strokes for different folks? Just as there are people who will buy a Lamborghini (or even multiple Lambos) because it's not a Ferrari, there will be people who buy the Lexus for similar reasons. Not everyone wants the same obvious, cliched supercar choice. If they did, Pagani, Koenigsegg, Spyker, Ascari, etc. would never, ever exist.

 

relax guibo. it was just a funny comparison. i think the point most of us are trying to convey is its a pretty amazing car, there's no doubt about it, but at that price point, there are several other cars that preform on that level and have a pedigree.

if you want to talk about a japaese supercar that makes a compelling argument, lets talk about the GTR. all the performance at 1/3 the price. why can nissan pull it off, yet lexus goes for some crazy halo car? and there's noway you can argue that they look a lot alike.

besides, the 2000gt really launched toyota into the sports car world. i mean look at the cars to follow


and before you start. yes i know my lotus is a celica gts with a fiberglass bodykit.

 

...that didn't stop Pagani, Koenigsegg, Ascari, etc. I'm wondering why these company get free passes on "pedigree."
The beauty about the free market is that there are options. If someone wants a car with the performance and pedigree, they can have it. For those who don't give a crap about pedigree, yet want a thrilling car to drive that is very rare, they too can have that. Not everyone who buys a yacht has to give a crap about which manufacturer has built the most Perini Cup or America's Cup winners. They buy what they like.

All the performance? Not subjectively. Ask yourself if your Lotus is all about objective numbers performance.
GT-R can be 1/3rd the price because it's selling at ~10x the volume, if not more. The engine is based on the VQ family, and being turbocharged it's easier to arrive at that power specification. Its body is made from steel, not CF. Same for the brakes. You can bet that if Nissan developed it to withstand 24-hour enduros on the Nordschleife, it would probably cost quite a bit more too. In any event, it's somewhat pointless to compare one car losing money (in terms of selling price) with another that is also losing money.

 

i think youre missing my point.

all of the other cars you mentioned.. pagani ascari konigsegg.. they build supercars. toyota, well they build people haulers. minivans, sedans, and hybrids.
lets start off slow. how about they build another supra, or ae86 if they want to get back into the performance world. hell, how about a new mr2. once a cool little car, the last one was embarrassing. even the celica lost its swagger (remember the all-trac?).
i guess at the end of the day toyota has no business being in the supercar game as they havent built a single roadgoing car with a soul, let alone the aspirations of a supercar. (you mention my lotus, a car with soul and carachter beyond what the performance statistics could ever show.. built off of toyota parts no less)
yea they are going to sell the 500 cars. and they will be epic. its an amazing car. no denying it. but would i pass porsche ferrari lambo et al. in order to have one? never.

im trying really hard to understand why youre defending this car. we are agreeing that its an amazing achievement. i just question its relevance.

but what do i know. the is-f is pretty cool i guess.. minus the fake exhaust tips.

 

But what did they build before they built supercars?? That is my point: You can have ZERO pedigree, yet offer a viable alternative in the marketplace that is more expensive than Ferrari; and in the case of the original Zonda vs the 550 Maranello, one that is slower than the Ferrari.
New AE86? Why do you assume they're not building one as we speak? And how do you know the AE86, MR2, GT One and 2000GT don't have a soul? What you consider to be a soul could very well be something else to someone else. Anyway, most reviews indicate the LFA is a soul-stirring drive, so that renders moot any argument of its worth as a fuzzily-defined function of "soul."
Your contention thatToyota should not build a supercar worthy of Ferrari pricetag on the basis that they haven't built one before is ludicrous. It doesn't stand up to any logical scrutiny whatsoever. Should Porsche not have built the Panamera on the basis that they haven't built such a sedan before? Toyota do build people haulers, minivans, and sedans, but they've also built WRC and Pikes Peaks winners, Le Mans racers, IMSA road racing champions, even dabbled in Formula One, which is a helluva lot more than any of us can say about Koenigsegg and Pagani.
Your logic would dictate that companies like BMW and Mercedes should never introduce hybrids because...well, they haven't built them before. Your same logic would also predict the failure of Lexus as a viable alternative to BMW and Mercedes, or the failure of Lamborghini on the basis that they'd built tractors before building a Ferrari-worthy rival. Many people probably predicted that decades ago. Were they right?

I'm not forcing the LFA on you or anyone. If you don't like it on the basis of looks or whatever, fine. Looks are subjective. I already know you wouldn't pass up a Ferrari; you can't see past the badge. Fine. But look at it from the perspective of someone who has a crapload of money but can't be arsed to know Fangio from Fuji. And if you're going to use BS arguments like "heritage" or LFA vs GT-R without also looking at other cars which also fail such litmus tests miserably, then you can expect some debate. While you're at it, try to convince me that a supercar purchase is a completely rational purchasing decision. Good luck with that.

 

While I understand the point, Acura is not is not in the same league with Lexus. I still believe the LFA costs too much but only the market will determine that. I don't believe pro athletes should make 10-20 mill a year either but if that's what the market says they're worth, that's what they get. If the LFA sells for this price, then it's worth it. Only time will tell.
I'll tell you this, the final product released to the public better have a better looking front end than these pre-launch models. It's just not attractive enough for that kind of chedda.

 

This coming from a guy who drives a go cart to work!

Fake tips, like the ones used by lamborghini?




or Audi in the R8?




But I guess that's ok because of all the "racing" heritage

 

i drive a golf cart because to me there is no more raw, soulful (obtainable) car on the road today. i drive my lotus over the 997tt at my disposal because its that much more engaging and fun.
you missed what i was trying to get at about building a lower priced car, and i guess that my fault for not being clear enough. maybe they are building a new ae86, but i thought the deal with subaru fell through. or the mr2... either way i have driven those cars and they are a blast. much more compelling of a car than the lfa to me.
so i concede, umbadbro and guibo... youre right, i am wrong. i hope you both enjoy your lexuses.. lexi? i dont know what the plural is, but whatever it is enjoy them.

the lfa is a great car and i never said otherwise. but for the money, id rather have two of our 997tt or a 997tt as a daily, and a gt3 a a track ****.. or any combination of two supercars costing less than a Lexus. and thats the point. not the pedigree but the price for what you get.

 

Pagani and Koenigsegg I don't think can be compared in this discussion. While they are considered Exotics and they have great performance they are not jumping into a exotic market with 500 units and Picking who gets them. Pagani has produced basically 10 cars a year for the past 10 years. Koenigsegg built 18 cars in 2008 and who knows how many last year. These cars while being incredibly fast with Pagani looking the best imho aren't flying off the shelves. Saleen ( where did they go? ) We also have the Ultimate Aero getting produced here in Washington State with VERY little interest world wide for sales. They sell some but I believe the last few have gone to the middle east and I actually don't know if any are here in the states.

The exotic car world is a funny animal with very a small percentage with the funds to play. The very few are very selective with their funds and don't just buy one because others can't. That's been the arguement here a couple of times. Lexus boasts one of the best Luxury Sedans ever made. I would never own one because my mom has had one for many years so in my mind they are your mom's car. Stigma haunts car manufactures. Ask 100 people what type of guy drives a Corvette and they will say Middle Aged unbuttoned tacky shirt and gold chains. I myself have never met a Corvette driver with that Tacky shirt so Corvettes are sterotyped unfairly.

While I've never liked Lambos they have a following and a exotic flare that is hard to match. Any Lexus will NEVER have that flare. Most people if they ever see one will ask "weird what's that" if they even notice the car at all. This LFA has no character and it has no Exotic flare. It looks identical to the GTR who cares if it's CF over steel they could have been drawn in the same room. Yes a couple differences but come on guys it carries no Awe factor. Pangani Koenigsegg and the others have an exotic flare and you can never take away from that. 10 units or 20 units a year they will always have customers. This LFA is 50 times that production. The guys with 5 exotics in their garage aren't adding one because it doesn't have an exotic soul I don't care if it has a heritage behind it or not. With an extra 350k in the bank right now for cars I would tell you this LFA would be about 400 down the list of desired cars I would add to my collection.
I will say the kids from the Fast and the Furious will love this beast and I'm sure it's faster than many of my cars but who cares. I'd take my 65' 356 Cab over it anyday. The early Porsche tubs have a soul VW powered or not and they have a character and awe factor very few cars can achieve.
Just because Lexus slapped a V10 and a 200mph capability in it they still have a long ways to go to convince me it's the real deal.

 

h20, you put into words what i must not have. its impressive, but so what.

 

We just said it different ways and with kids at home I took 15 minutes to actually post mine.

I would tell them to enjoy their LEXI ( plural I believe ) to answer your question but they've not told us they are lucky enough to be on The List!

 

im glad we can come to an agreement on the plural form of lexus.

 

my 2 cents is lexus is nuts.

 

LOL! So now that we get into a serious discussion about Pagani and Koenigsegg, both of which fail miserably the pedigree/heritage litmus test, now suddenly production numbers are somehow relevant? Where was that argument when some of you curiously decided that Lexus was somehow jumping into the V8 Ferrari market with only 500 planned units? This is laughable. As silly as thinking that Alfa Romeo were trying to steal Ferrari customers with its 8C, which cost as much as the Scuderia but isn't as fast in objective performance.

How do you know that people with the funds won't be buying one because others can't? Are you in that select group of people? The very filthy rich are selective with their funds...explain to me what makes a Vertu phone better than another phone costing a fraction of the price. You seriously think an Audemars Piguet is purchased on its objective ability to keep accurate time, that much better than a quartz Timex? I guess the fact that Lamborghini saw greater interest in the more expensive Reventon Roadster than in the coupe (which was already sold out even before the depths of the recession) shows how selective the filthy rich are with their funds, eh.

Lexus doesn't have to have that flair to justify the price. Fortune-telling naysayers with defective ouija boards also said decades ago that Toyota could never build BMW- and Mercedes-rivaling automobiles...

For the people who matter (the ones that can afford it), if they prefer the CF and thinks it adds distinction to the LFA over the GT-R, then that's who cares.

Lexus aren't targeting people with an extra 350k in the bank. If all you have is 350k, that probably means you're scraping the bottom of the barrel in order to afford this car. Lexus is targeting millionaires and billionaires. At last count, there were 793 billionaires in this world with average net assets of ~$3B. There are also something on the order of 5-7 million millionaires. Quite clearly, not all of these people are driving up prices of Ferraris to ridiculous prices. So this should give you some idea of how much value they place on pedigree. Oh yeah, like rich guys in Arab states and Russia never buy Corvettes. As if the world's richest man who also happens to own a 959 would never buy a Lexus.

As for your contention that the LFA lacks soul and isn't exotic, did you drive one? I seriously doubt you did. I'm going to take the word of respected car journalists on both sides of the Atlantic over yours anyday. Yeah, we already get it: you would never buy one because of the badge. Next!

 

You guys like the car so much, buy one....and spend the rest of your time explaining to everyone that asks what it is....no it did not cost $ 70k and no I am not going to go into my 10 minute dissertation to justify or explain my decision as to whats so special about my car....that incidentally I paid $350k for one.



And Mark you didn't see my chest hair, hawaiian shirt and gold chains?