View Poll Results: Choose one
Porsche 2010 GT2
26
22.61%
Lexus LFA
20
17.39%
Ferrari F430 Scuderia
17
14.78%
Lamborghini LP670-4 SuperVeloce
52
45.22%
Voters: 115. You may not vote on this poll
Is Lexus crazy or what? Info on the new LFA.
#31
cgt > lfa
#32
#33
As for weights, don't put too much faith in them. Are you comparing Ferrari's dry weights or their curb weights with fluids?
Don't believe Sport Auto measured downforce. The measured Cd was different because unknown to some people Cd varies with speed since normal drag is proportional to v^2 and downforce induced drag is proportional to v^4. And frankly I'd trust my **** more than Sport Auto.
And like Ferrari's wind tunnel is likely to be inaccurate after over half a century in F1.
And like Ferrari's wind tunnel is likely to be inaccurate after over half a century in F1.
The F1 comment is ridiculous. Ferrari makes no claims about the downforce of F1 cars and even if they did, we would have no idea if the figures would be different somewhere else.
And do you seriously think the Enzo was priced at true market value? Think about that before replying.
Show me the cornering speed data that proves the F360/F430 produces hundreds of pounds of downforce at 186 mph.
Unfortunately your argument is totally invalid as a Zonda F is 300kg lighter than a ZR1, thus demonstrating how CF is supposed to be used and the production version beats a ZR1 on track and in a straight line. It also has the bonus of being a 7.3 V12 with an interior that isn't snatched straight from a Vauxhall Astra. Nor does it have a stupid plastic bit on the bonnet just so that it looks different to a Z06.
If I can further assist you with your confusion, do not hesitate to ask.
If I can further assist you with your confusion, do not hesitate to ask.
These two recorded times on the 'Ring within 5 seconds of each other. For a long track with many variables, that's pretty much the same time. On the short Hockenheim track, the ZR1 was faster (1:09.7 vs 1:10.8). They also recorded the same 0-200 kph time of 11.4s.
Aha, so now a bespoke interior suddenly matters and justifies the 6x price difference of the Zonda? C'mon, get real. What happened to your previous argument that only the end result of the technology (PERFORMANCE) is what matters?
BTW, I could have just as easily used the regular Zonda C12S to illustrate the same point: less power, less torque, slower on NRing and HRing, yet the C12S cost much more. And it was still the same when the original Zonda had a largely unmodified Mercedes engine producing ~400 hp. A Porsche Turbo or GT2 of the time would have matched its performance for far, far less. So what was the point of all that CF? Such a waste, right? Only unwitting fools would buy such a car when a 360 Modena could match it for a fraction of the price.
Confusion? You can't seem to even understand why the Z8 cost more than the M5 with pretty similar mechanicals...
#34
Why don't you ask this guy about the LFA? Unlike all of us he's actually been in one.
https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...xperience.html
https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...xperience.html
#35
Here's how so: the 458 isn't made from CF. Simple, no? The 458 is using existing body/chassis methods and tooling carried over from the F430 carried over from the 360 Modena (which at the time, used ALCOA's personnel and "factory within a factory" to produce the aluminum shells; Ferrari didn't start making them themselves).
As for weights, don't put too much faith in them. Are you comparing Ferrari's dry weights or their curb weights with fluids?
Some of the figures I posted were at the same speed (124 mph). How is the lift created by the F430 @ 124 mph magically going to result in hundreds of pounds of downforce at 186 mph? Does it have active aero like the Enzo?
The F1 comment is ridiculous. Ferrari makes no claims about the downforce of F1 cars and even if they did, we would have no idea if the figures would be different somewhere else.
And do you seriously think the Enzo was priced at true market value? Think about that before replying.
Show me the cornering speed data that proves the F360/F430 produces hundreds of pounds of downforce at 186 mph.
It's not 300kg. More like 162kg, as measured by the same scale (Sport Auto's).
These two recorded times on the 'Ring within 5 seconds of each other. For a long track with many variables, that's pretty much the same time. On the short Hockenheim track, the ZR1 was faster (1:09.7 vs 1:10.8). They also recorded the same 0-200 kph time of 11.4s.
Aha, so now a bespoke interior suddenly matters and justifies the 6x price difference of the Zonda? C'mon, get real. What happened to your previous argument that only the end result of the technology (PERFORMANCE) is what matters?
BTW, I could have just as easily used the regular Zonda C12S to illustrate the same point: less power, less torque, slower on NRing and HRing, yet the C12S cost much more. And it was still the same when the original Zonda had a largely unmodified Mercedes engine producing ~400 hp. A Porsche Turbo or GT2 of the time would have matched its performance for far, far less. So what was the point of all that CF? Such a waste, right? Only unwitting fools would buy such a car when a 360 Modena could match it for a fraction of the price.
Confusion? You can't seem to even understand why the Z8 cost more than the M5 with pretty similar mechanicals...
As for weights, don't put too much faith in them. Are you comparing Ferrari's dry weights or their curb weights with fluids?
Some of the figures I posted were at the same speed (124 mph). How is the lift created by the F430 @ 124 mph magically going to result in hundreds of pounds of downforce at 186 mph? Does it have active aero like the Enzo?
The F1 comment is ridiculous. Ferrari makes no claims about the downforce of F1 cars and even if they did, we would have no idea if the figures would be different somewhere else.
And do you seriously think the Enzo was priced at true market value? Think about that before replying.
Show me the cornering speed data that proves the F360/F430 produces hundreds of pounds of downforce at 186 mph.
It's not 300kg. More like 162kg, as measured by the same scale (Sport Auto's).
These two recorded times on the 'Ring within 5 seconds of each other. For a long track with many variables, that's pretty much the same time. On the short Hockenheim track, the ZR1 was faster (1:09.7 vs 1:10.8). They also recorded the same 0-200 kph time of 11.4s.
Aha, so now a bespoke interior suddenly matters and justifies the 6x price difference of the Zonda? C'mon, get real. What happened to your previous argument that only the end result of the technology (PERFORMANCE) is what matters?
BTW, I could have just as easily used the regular Zonda C12S to illustrate the same point: less power, less torque, slower on NRing and HRing, yet the C12S cost much more. And it was still the same when the original Zonda had a largely unmodified Mercedes engine producing ~400 hp. A Porsche Turbo or GT2 of the time would have matched its performance for far, far less. So what was the point of all that CF? Such a waste, right? Only unwitting fools would buy such a car when a 360 Modena could match it for a fraction of the price.
Confusion? You can't seem to even understand why the Z8 cost more than the M5 with pretty similar mechanicals...
#36
Why don't you ask this guy about the LFA? Unlike all of us he's actually been in one.
https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...xperience.html
https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...xperience.html
P.S I would like everyone to chime in on this.
It's ok to agree or disagree, i just want to see, how many people agree.
Thanks.....
#37
Here's how so: the 458 isn't made from CF. Simple, no? The 458 is using existing body/chassis methods and tooling carried over from the F430 carried over from the 360 Modena (which at the time, used ALCOA's personnel and "factory within a factory" to produce the aluminum shells; Ferrari didn't start making them themselves).
As for weights, don't put too much faith in them. Are you comparing Ferrari's dry weights or their curb weights with fluids?
As for weights, don't put too much faith in them. Are you comparing Ferrari's dry weights or their curb weights with fluids?
Zonda F - 1230kg
...as measured by a more accurate scale.
Comparing Sport Auto 'ring laps is like comparing the time taken for a daily commute in 2 separate cars on 2 different days. There's a whole multitude of factors at large beyond the cars themself.
And it was still the same when the original Zonda had a largely unmodified Mercedes engine producing ~400 hp. A Porsche Turbo or GT2 of the time would have matched its performance for far, far less. So what was the point of all that CF? Such a waste, right? Only unwitting fools would buy such a car when a 360 Modena could match it for a fraction of the price.
You're right, I can't. Ghastly little things Z8s.
Last edited by BD-; 11-18-2009 at 10:52 AM.
#38
#39
I love it, you guys are really going in, i guess thats the only way to compare, when you are talking about buying cars over a quarter mil.... keep it clean though, we all share the same interest for cars, i didn't know it was going to be a turn out like this though, thanks for all the input, it really helps everyone out, that doesn't know, and that only reads what information is provided in magazines. I thank you all, for all the info, keep it coming. This what makes forum good.....
#40
Factoring in performance, technology, build, and exclusivity. Yes.
#41
The problem w/ this thread is that it was started w/ an inherent bias against Japanese cars from the beginning. Then more of these people chimed in. The best opinion would come from REAL car enthusiasts (instead of those who get a hard-on for only European cars) who actually are in the position to afford one (like the person in the aforemention thread, and Jay Leno).
On other forums people think that if they're going to spend 200-400K on one car it's going to be the only one they'll ever buy. Hence, the bias against the Japanese.
#42
He said it is worth it. And he owns an F430.
The problem w/ this thread is that it was started w/ an inherent bias against Japanese cars from the beginning. Then more of these people chimed in. The best opinion would come from REAL car enthusiasts (instead of those who get a hard-on for only European cars) who actually are in the position to afford one (like the person in the aforemention thread, and Jay Leno).
On other forums people think that if they're going to spend 200-400K on one car it's going to be the only one they'll ever buy. Hence, the bias against the Japanese.
The problem w/ this thread is that it was started w/ an inherent bias against Japanese cars from the beginning. Then more of these people chimed in. The best opinion would come from REAL car enthusiasts (instead of those who get a hard-on for only European cars) who actually are in the position to afford one (like the person in the aforemention thread, and Jay Leno).
On other forums people think that if they're going to spend 200-400K on one car it's going to be the only one they'll ever buy. Hence, the bias against the Japanese.
#43
Lexus is crazy
I'd rather have a GTR!
#44
#45