The Cinque gearbox isn't that good either. First attempt at a paddle shift.

It may have been the Autocar magazine that mentioned the LFA rear end. Either way, when Evo and Autocar agree on something, then it is so.

'Wayward suspension' is a polite way of saying '**** suspension'.

Neither does your's but there are a lot more pointing to a Lexus V10 rather than a BMW unit.

Well case proved, people pay a lot of money for rare crap - doesn't mean it's any good. Rarity and time make anything valuable.

Funny but its predecessor's weight (Scuderia) seems very close to the manufacturer's claims. How about the LFA's predecessor? Oops forgot, no heritage.

Post it. As I said, I only have Evo's Scuderia article at hand and that says 1374kg (full tank - Issue 121, page 94). So sorry, don't believe you.

Nice try. It's only Sport Horoldo who can't manage to weigh things correctly. Tell me if Evo weigh a Scuderia at 1374kg with a full tank, how can Sport Horoldo weigh one at 1402kg unless they had something extra in the car like a sack of pies and wurstbudes?

Okay here we go. Your original statement:

Sport Horoldo measures the 997 GT2 as having more downforce than the Scuderia and yet the Scuderia is decisively faster in higher speed corners, as seen here:

Oh and the Gumpert is 4s faster than the CGT. All just mechanical grip though.

See all that grip on the last third of the lap? All mechanical that, no aero?





None except Sport Auto regularly test there. I did bold and underline the 'regular' bit but some how you still missed it. For Autocar, the 'ring is an infrequent day out. Same with Evo and CAR. It's not a regular testing place.

Well let's see, the Speed is TUV approved, the Sport isn't. I guess they must have just renamed the Sport to fool TUV.

Even ignoring the Apollo, look at the ZR1, GTR, Scuderia, LP560 etc. All their Nordschleife times are way down on the GT2 in Sport Horoldo and they just aren't that much slower in reality as the posted v-t graph proves.

True they don't but there'll always be an abundance of people like me and everyone else in this thread (except you) to take a **** on them if that's the case.

Well just what have you been trying to prove with all these Sport Horoldo stats then? Why not just say the following:

A ZR1 is an air-fix model though. So comparing it to a 599 is a little silly. An F458-LFA comparison is perfectly valid however, especially when an F458 doesn't have that 'just been to Veilside look' about it.

Not at all. A California is a completely different genre of car. It's like using a Cadillac Escalade as a measure of ZR1 statistical accuracies.

As my pictures show, a Scuderia with half a tank probably matches or undercuts the manufacturer claim.

Only in your little whingy worl. I've seen no such evidence. All I see is that a Scuderia measured with a full tank weighs within less than 2% of manufacturer's figures.

No one said the Koenigsegg was a great car. Fairly mediocre handling an an exaggerated power claim. The Zonda on the otherhand is a work of art in F CS form and shouldn't be mentioned in the same thread as an LFA. In fact, if it comes up again, I'll assume that you're retarded.

 

For God's sake, stop bringing the Pagani Zonda into this discussion. It has no place in a thread with the LFA. It's like comparing a Sapphire Cosworth to an Austin Montego.

 

Do I have the money to buy such a car? Nope.
If I did, would I buy this car at the $375k price? Yes.

 

I have to agree with what you've said, but the cars you have mentioned all have racing history and experience of some sort and are well known at what they do. I know Toyota F1 technologies is involved and incorporated into this car. Why didn't they just sell it as a Toyota brand, instead of Lexus brand. This is why I think Lexus is very missed up. The reason why I come up with the pricing per unit exclusivity theory. Not every mainstream car manufacturer can produce a hypercar and sell it at ridiculous prices for it. Ferrari, Porsche, Corvette ZR1s and Ford GT can charge that price because it has credibility(brand heritage, racing experience, ownership experience (missing a few)) Zonda could charge crazy prices because they can, they have no history or making in-attractive cars, so they have a new blank piece of paper to work with, they could do anything.
To sum up, a Lexus brand with tarnished name producing 500 of these cars and charging more than 3/4 of a million is just absurd!

 

With the price point Lexus has designated and the specs the car has I wonder if this project has been delayed so long that the paramaters have moved upmarket. Even tuner cars have more power & better performance.

At the current price point the Lexus LF-A should be able to do:

0-62 mph
3.0
HP
750whp
Torque
700lb-ft @ 6200
Drivetrain
Mid-engine RWD / AWD , rear wheel steering ( ala Nissan's HISCAS)
Engine
V-10 / V-12
Aerodynamics
Speed controlled front & rear spoiler, speed sensitive height adjustment control,

 

I am having a hard time believing that a supercar that is priced like this performs less, has less heritage, has no enthusiast groups/lifestyle but because of its in house made chassis that its acceptable? I don't care what anyone says I would never spend $400k on a car just based on the construction of the chassis or to make the payment on Toyota's rotary loom. Supercars are judged on their heritage, looks, performance, and community but somehow the technology of this car overrides that? What am I missing here? The LFA is an amazing car, and a technological delight but thats what you expect at its $350k + price point and more!

What tangible and real performance, chassis and or ride benefits are realized relative to the competition to justify its higher price? I personally don't care if the car is made from Schick razor material in the Schick factory and covered in shaving cream upon delivery. I want to realize real and tangible improvements in performance if I am forced to pay for it!

So can someone please tell me what the LFA can do much better as far as performance/ chassis/ handling wise compared to this competition?

1. 458 Italia
2. Mclaren MP4-C12
3. Noble M600
4. Lamborghini Gallardo
5. 599 GTB
6. Gumbert Apollo Speed

 

+1
Just because they want to keep it exclusive, they are just going to produce 500 of them, to them that justified the price tag, they must be all smoking on something!

 

+1 for that.... give the person who is buying the car, feel like i just purchased, a 3.0 sec car, with a v12..... bad enough its a lexus with a 370,000 price tag....

 

If Autocar complained about the LFA rear end, can you post that up or provide a link? Because it's showing up in neither their online review nor their video summary. They did note in the video: "...there's masses of lateral grip. You can, of course, overcome the traction with the engine. But when you do, it's quite easy to control."
That sounds like a complaint to you?

Cinque review shows: gearbox evaluation != car evaluation. And a 4-star car can still be described as "sensational."

Anyway, here are the last 2 paragraphs of Autocar's LFA review:
"What is clear though, is that the LFA is packed with technology that has been developed to an incredibly high standard, presumably at astronomical cost to Toyota. And we’d guess that for some individuals, gaining access to such exclusive technology will justify the LFA’s price.
What’s more impressive though, is that the LFA has a character of its own, rather follow a preset supercar template. That it is more solidly constructed than anything Italian, and less flamboyant, is perhaps to be expected from a Lexus. What’s surprising though is how honed and sharp it feels to drive. While it has GT qualities it’s no soft-edged GT. Instead it is a serious and credible supercar."

Sounds like they were impressed to me. And that's not even mentioning the specifics of engine note and handling.


Considering cars like the Corvette don't have much else to do in their design brief, that is already quite damning.

Anything? I don't see your high tech dog-crap selling like you were saying.
If people pay a lot of money for something, then it would appear to be worth the price. That's the nature of worth: something is only worth what people are willing to pay for it. Simple economics. Ask yourself why Nissan can only sell a paltry handful of GT-R's compared to Porsche's Turbo, when it has been beating the Turbo in test after test and for much less money. Are those people who buy Turbo's idiots and suckers? Is the Turbo not worth the money?

It's right here: 1402kg

Also, check out this test by C&D of a Euro-market Scuderia: 1392kg
That's within 10kg of Sport Auto's result.

You don't believe me? You're the one claiming Sport Auto weighed the Scuderia at 1450+ kg, and now you're claiming I'm the liar? LOL. Now, I've shown you where Sport Auto didn't weight the Scuderia at 1450+ kg as you contend. It's your turn to support your statement.

Beats me. You claimed they adjusted the tire pressure of the Scuderia to give it an unfair advantage on the track. Who's to say they didn't do something else to the car? But thanks for accepting that even the Scuderia supplied by Ferrari and accompanied by the small army of red-coated engineers weighed more than the claim, just like the 599 and the California.

That's not my original statement. This is my original statement:
"Here's a problem with your downforce by cornering analysis:
Ferrari claim for F430 @ 300 kph: 280kg
Porsche claim for 997.2 GT3 @ 300 kph: 100kg
The Ferrari claims nearly 3 times the downforce. But is it really noticeably faster in corners than that new GT3?
It's in post #80 of this thread, which is unedited as anyone with eyes can see. I can only surmise that when you went to mis-quote that, you deleted the "3" and put a "2" in its place. I never said anything about the GT2. I'm not aware that there is even any new GT2 yet tested, and I sure as hell did not link to any GT2 article. I linked specifically to the new GT3. It's pretty amazine you somehow thought GT2 and even came up with a mis-quote.

The Porsche-spec MPSC's on the GT2 aren't genuine R-compounds like what the Scuderia has. They are Cup+, which have a tread better optimized for wet driving conditions, and longer wear. I have already discussed this in previous threads.
The Gumpert made much of that time up on the straights. Look at its explosive acceleration curve on the lap (green trace):

On the highest-speed final corner, there was nothing between them. Put the CGT on the same tires and see if there's a difference. Notice also that in that final high-speed corner, the Scuderia was faster than the Gumpert. By your logic, the Scuderia must be making 1200+ kg of downforce at 300 kph. The Caterham was faster than both of them.
There is aero working. You can't put it at 1200 kg @ 300 kph. Why not just pick any random number like 1800 kg? 2000 kg?


Doesn't matter. They have tested there. They have never done any aero/downforce testing. You can't invalidate Sport Auto's data based on the lack of data provided by others.

Why did you bother to post that? Much of that information is already posted on their site. What I can't see is where Evo Magazine personnel adjusted tire pressures to give the Scuderia a track advantage that they did not do for the Lambo. C'mon, guy. Be a sport and post up that information which you claim to be true.

I guess you cleverly went on a tangent to avoid answering the question: what are the technical differences between the two cars? From what 0-60 Mag wrote, the Apollo Speed's suspension was adjusted to match the characteristics of the 'Ring. Sport Auto don't fiddle with cars like that. They don't mess with tire pressures (like you claim that Evo have done).

I don't recall seeing a v-t graph of the Nordschleife for the GT2.
It's expected that they would be more familiar with the GT2; they have probably supertested Porsches more than any other single marque. That doesn't necessarily mean an ulterior motive for slower times. Their comment about the ZR1's tricky handling has been echoed in other reviews. They called the LP560 to task for its brakes, and that's what other mags in the UK have said as well. A GT-R running within 12 seconds after only very few laps compared to Suzuki, and with VDC-R, is damn impressive and only a fool would think otherwise.

So what if it's an air-fix model. That didn't stop you from comparing the LFA to relatively mass-produced and less bespoke cars. Your whole mantra was: "If the technology applied doesn't give a real-world result in performance (like lap times), then the car is a waste of [insert material of choice here]." The 599 costs a shedload more than the ZR1, yet where is the performance advantage?? You can't tell me the price difference is all in the interior because a $15-20k Caravaggio interior in the ZR1 blows that theory out of the water.

So you're telling me that the Ferrari factory has a different weighing scale for each genre of car? Haha.
As your pictures show, the manufacturer claim (if it's half a tank) is at odds with the EU norm. Isn't Italy a part of the EU? Why don't Ferrari weigh their cars like other EU-based companies do? Instead they provide two figures, one of which is a dry figure which is about as useful as weighing yourself without any blood.

So why don't you whine about the Koenigsegg?? Double standard? Yes, Pagani can be mentioned in the same thread as an LFA when Toyota's racing or supercar-building pedigree is questioned, as you and others have been doing.

 

Look at the reaction this car is getting while sold under the Lexus brand; imagine the outcry if it were badged a Toyota.
Here in the US, Lexus has more cachet than Toyota. There is also a different level of service provided to the customer. Around the world elsewhere, it's not as well known or respected. The LFA helps to build the image of the brand; it doesn't need to build the image of the same brand that sells the iQ.
I think the fact that you're bringing up Pagani's success proves the point: not everyone in the market for a $600K+ supercar gives a rat's *** about racing heritage.

 

The 1st two are too new to draw any meaningful conclusions.

Noble M600: only available in the UK. I don't think they're even type-approved in the EU.

Lamborghini Gallardo: with the AWD, it feels duller than even the standard F430. RWD Balboni is better, but still suffers from poor brake feel and modulation.

599 GTB: a couple of reviews so far say the LFA handles better and/or feels more nimble. (Go watch Nat'l Geographic's documentary on how this car is made to appreciate the value of being largely made in-house; it a lot different than having the work farmed out to suppliers that are already set up with the tooling to handle similar work for other firms).

Gumpert: no, it's not faster than the Gumpert. But then the Gumpert has zero heritage too and if that's the benchmark by which to judge other cars, then all other cars are not worth the money either.

Your post seems to indicate you haven't got a clue about rarity and exclusivity.

 

I didn't bring it up. That was SRatha. I'm addressing the issues he raised.

 

It was in the magazine. Didn't buy it though. The car's **** feels unsteady under heavy braking with VDIM off.

Well of course. It has 678bhp/575lbft, a 7.3L V12 and weighs 1200kg and looks exquisite. By comparison the LFA has 552bhp, a 4.8 V10, a pathetic 354lbft, weighs 1500kg and looks like Veilside helped with the bodywork.

It was bad enough that you mentioned the Zonda F CS in the same thread as the LFA, now you choose to mention the Zonda Cinque as well. Is there no end to your blasphemy?



They've found the suspension to be non-compliant for true road driving on less than perfect surfaces beyond the realms of the track. To be quite honest I'd personally rather take a job testing bullet-proof vests than try drive a Corvette fast on a wet, greasy B-road... or even a dry one.

No but Toyota's is.

Yes and yes. As you know economic worth is only ever temporary and is subject to the media-manipulated minds of weak and feeble men. Hence it's not a good measure of true engineered worth.

That says 'Fahrzeug voll getankt' - 'vehicle fully refuelled'. It doesn't say 'kerb weight' or how many pies are in the boot.

Probably left their lunch in the car. A car can't weigh more than it does fully fuelled with all fluids if it's empty. Simple as that.

My contention is that the factory kerb weight is accurate and hence the F458 kerb weight will be accurate.

The car didn't come with an army of red-coated engineers and they didn't do anything else with it and it still pissed on the GT2 and CGT even with factory pressure in the front tyres. Altering the pressure made about half a second. It's actually debatable whether the gain was down to the change at all.

Well the new GT3.2 ran 1:23.3 in the last issue, so it also got raped by the Scuderia. Any further questions?

The Gumpert is stated as being able to drive upsidedown at 300kph, therefore if it weighs 1200kg... jeez did you do Newton at school at all?

Looking at the graph it's apparent that the Gumpert is beyond the capabilities of the test driver. However, in turn 7 the difference is clear and it's also apparent in turn 8 in that the Gumpert gets on the power sooner. They're the only 2 turns applicable to downforce wrt the fact that they're above 70mph


Of course it bloody matter. When Evo test cars they do so at Bedford Autodrome. Autocar use their wet and dry handling tracks. Their road tests do not routinely take cars to the Nurburgring. It's like a once or twice a year event if they go there. As such their mags only publish figures for their regular tracks. I.e. if I want to find an Evo/Autocar Scuderia/ZR1/GTR time at the 'ring, I can't, so there nothing to verify Sport Horoldo's results against.

FFS. Very well.



No Sport Monaro are just crap. So what if Evo messed with tyre pressures, it's a zero cost, zero effort change. And as I said the time didn't change much anyway.

That's because they don't do v-t graphs because it makes bull**** easier to smell. Suzuki? Think you mean Suzuka. Funny that in the trickiest car of all, the rear-engined turbocharged GT2, they do just fine. Must be a great car for novices NOT.

I've already explained this point. The F458 is on par with the LFA on an all round basis including interior. If I was just doing a performance-price comparison with the LFA I'd take a Ultima GTR800 into consideration and say, "oh look the LFA has been completely raped." It's you, being ignorant, that has decided to declare that the F458 isn't in the same league as the LFA and moved on to compare the ZR1 with the Zonda Cinque (and now 599) as a means of proving this, making a complete jackass of yourself in the process.

I feel that in comparing the F458 and MP4-12C (known supercar brands with massive racing heritage) to the LFA (little racing brand heritage) I've been making a more than reasonable comparison. Conversely, by comparing the ZR1 to a Zonda Cinque, you've been making a retarded comparison.

Are you telling me that Sport Monaro has different scales for each genre of car? Maybe a California has more options. Don't know but a California has nothing to do with this conversation.

Not everyone follows the EU norm. Sometimes their norm is a pile of **** that they try to bring down on the individual states, like measuring torque in Nm and power in kW. Many people like to stick with tradition.

Because this is an LFA thread, it's for whining about the LFA.

It can but whoever mentions it will come across as being mentally disabled.

 

I'd also like to see a 'ring record for that price.

 

The GTR would be shameful to wear an Infiniti badge. The same applies here. Why didn't they call it Lexus F1 instead of Toyota? You see the kind of treatment you get when you buy this car is like going into a spa or a high class massage parlor, yes the treatment from the staff is very good, but is that what people are paying for this car? People are paying to have more friends? So what are the customers getting out of that heavy price tag + the car? Because if the car doesn't seem to cost nearly as much, maybe the service will accommodate for the extra cost?
For all I know, if you want to spec out this car requires you go to a Lexus dealership? then you will be greeted with glorified camrys and landcruisers.
In the end I don't have means to buy this car, even if I did I wouldn't pay people to be my friends either.