LFA 1st Test, Z06 speed for 599 GTB money!
#46
05-24-2010, 04:53 PM
LOL....I gotta hand it to you Guibo you do really like to create arguments out of thin air. How about not assuming things that dont appear in someones post eh?
Again with implying that I said those that can afford the LF-A are not car guys. Where are you getting this from? Certainly not from reading my posts. All are car guys but the majority will not see the value in the LF-A based on its performance since its trying to be a hyper exotic sportscar not a GT like a Bentley. This is why I said what I said about car forums. Is performance the end all be all of a car NO. But if you are attempting to position yourself at a certain level where performance is a hugely important factor then yes it should be looked at.
Also the Zonda example you used intially to show it was just like the LF-A because it was only as fast as a 550 a la the LF-A barely faster than an entry level car like the GTR. I merely pointed out that the 550m in your example was at least a highend car vs the entry level GTR. This doesnt make the LF-A look good as it can only barely beat an entry level supercar for a hell of a price. At least the Zonda was as fast or faster then fellow highend exotics.
You were also drawing the conclusion that the LF-A is no different than the Zonda hence you were indirectly comparing Pagani to Lexus. Cant believe you couldnt see that is what you were doing hence my incredulous feeling at you trying to compare what Toyota is capable of vs Pagani.
Again you have a singular mind on this subject so you cant see others opinions. Sad really. I see your point as it isnt something mystical that others havent considered
. You continue assuming that I said "they shouldnt have built it", "anyone that buys or likes an LF-A isnt a car guy" and whatever else goes on in your brain when you get into debate mode. 
I saw what the LF-A is capable of on the Top Gear track so it has very good handling etc. Handling is its strong point moreso than straighline acceleration kinda like the GTR. All I and others have ever said is that the total performance/looks is a bit lacking for the price. Toyota can easily fix that with a bit more power and a nicer front end. How do you possibly object to that opinion?
Again with implying that I said those that can afford the LF-A are not car guys. Where are you getting this from? Certainly not from reading my posts. All are car guys but the majority will not see the value in the LF-A based on its performance since its trying to be a hyper exotic sportscar not a GT like a Bentley. This is why I said what I said about car forums. Is performance the end all be all of a car NO. But if you are attempting to position yourself at a certain level where performance is a hugely important factor then yes it should be looked at.
Also the Zonda example you used intially to show it was just like the LF-A because it was only as fast as a 550 a la the LF-A barely faster than an entry level car like the GTR. I merely pointed out that the 550m in your example was at least a highend car vs the entry level GTR. This doesnt make the LF-A look good as it can only barely beat an entry level supercar for a hell of a price. At least the Zonda was as fast or faster then fellow highend exotics.
You were also drawing the conclusion that the LF-A is no different than the Zonda hence you were indirectly comparing Pagani to Lexus. Cant believe you couldnt see that is what you were doing hence my incredulous feeling at you trying to compare what Toyota is capable of vs Pagani.
Again you have a singular mind on this subject so you cant see others opinions. Sad really. I see your point as it isnt something mystical that others havent considered
. You continue assuming that I said "they shouldnt have built it", "anyone that buys or likes an LF-A isnt a car guy" and whatever else goes on in your brain when you get into debate mode. I saw what the LF-A is capable of on the Top Gear track so it has very good handling etc. Handling is its strong point moreso than straighline acceleration kinda like the GTR. All I and others have ever said is that the total performance/looks is a bit lacking for the price. Toyota can easily fix that with a bit more power and a nicer front end. How do you possibly object to that opinion?
"Its the performance thats at issue with most car dudes not its rarity, cache etc imho"
Do "most car guys" think the Reventon is a ripoff? How about a Murcielago SV which is no faster than a ZR1?
GT-R...do you seriously think Nissan are turning a profit on that car? Which car do you suppose took more development time and R&D resources, 550 or GT-R? The Nissan is a "low end car" which happens to blow many higher-end cars out of the water.
Again, I was not comparing Toyota to Pagani. But if you must continue on that, at least Toyota have some reputation for quality cars when they offered the LFA, unlike Pagani. This was also a factor in the purchasing decision of some. They were used to Lexus products, knew what to expect, and can be comfortable knowing Lexus provides better long-term support of the product than many other exotic companies. Lexus appears to have given considerable weight to previous Lexus owners in their allocation decisions.
How do you come to the conclusion that I assumed you said they shouldn't have built it? I was merely asking a question to get a response. Wow, talk about "assuming things that dont appear in someones post eh."
I don't object to that opinion, but I will counter that Lexus don't need to even consider that. They already have more buyers than they'd planned.
Looks is hugely subjective. Have you seen the kinds of art that sell for $100M? There were plenty of forum comments that were not favorable to the Enzo when it came out.
I would also like to know how "most car dudes" see the worth in the Black Series you mentioned.
Last edited by Guibo; 05-24-2010 at 05:04 PM.
#47
05-24-2010, 05:03 PM
Again most if not all of the LFA are already spoken for, so its not a discussion of its worth real or perceived. It's worth $375k simply because that price has been agreed to on a number of them already pre-sold. But were not talking about a car that is a few tenths slower here and there. We are talking about a sports exotic car, not a GT car with a rear seat mind you that is made out of unobtanium that performs worse than cars two car classes down!
Audi's approach is one that I liked very well, pricing an exotic without an exotic car badge withing arms reach of other more conventional sports cars. Once they established the R8 then they move the pricing with the V10 close to what the other entry level super cars are priced at. Where does Lexus go from here?
Which Lexus forums are you a member of?
Last edited by Guibo; 05-24-2010 at 05:05 PM.
#48
05-24-2010, 05:09 PM
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Toyota is the greatest marketing concern on planet earth that I will give them credit for! Me personally I rather my cars actually perform , as I am not rich enough or concerned enough to support the Lexus carbon fiber and rotary loom development fund!
I can not honestly say why anyone would buy a Ferrari or Lambo after hearing your argument about why the LFA is worth so much more and is so unique.
I can not honestly say why anyone would buy a Ferrari or Lambo after hearing your argument about why the LFA is worth so much more and is so unique.
#49
05-24-2010, 05:13 PM
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Its apparent to me that all the reasons, that I thought provoked people to buy exotics are all wrong. Lamborghini really needs to rein in the Murci replacement because they have it all wrong, and Ferrari really needs to call Lexus before the F70 Enzo replacement comes out.
All they have to do is make it sound good, and make sure it uses a lot of carbon fiber and make sure the cars are reliable and they don't have to be any lighter, or perform any better , or have any provenance or racing heritage. Ferrari should pull out of F1 immediately. Porsche should cancel the 918 Spyder and pull out of racing as well.
All they have to do is make it sound good, and make sure it uses a lot of carbon fiber and make sure the cars are reliable and they don't have to be any lighter, or perform any better , or have any provenance or racing heritage. Ferrari should pull out of F1 immediately. Porsche should cancel the 918 Spyder and pull out of racing as well.
#50
05-24-2010, 05:32 PM
Let me ask you something: Do you currently have enough money to buy a Ferrari 458? And even if you do, are you confident that it would be easier or less expensive for you to get into a 458 at MSRP than an LFA?
#51
05-24-2010, 05:38 PM
Provenance or racing heritage...is Lamborghini's racing heritage that much better than Toyota's? Pagani? Spyker?
#52
05-24-2010, 06:59 PM
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The LFA is the car for people that value looks, oh wait it isn't that amazing looking. The LFA is for people that value performance, oh wait it isn't that fast. The LFA is for people that value heritage , oh wait it doesn't have any! The LFA is for people that value reliability and telling their friends about its exotic construction?
No matter what you say to stick up for the LFA, and how much engineering Lexus does via press release the LFA is a victim of an inflated budget and excessive development period. That the LFA has the faults that it does in no way surprise me. I am amazed by its value being based on things told to you by them as part of the marketing strategy.
I don't care that the Lexus reaches redline in .06 seconds when I have to drive it to within an inch of its life just to stay in front on a GTR. I don't care that its fully carbon fiber when it weighs the thick side of 3500 lbs. In my humble opinion this a super car that is attempting to break the mold, but it in no way shape or form does anything innovative or new despite marketings attempts to say otherwise.
You act as if its competition does not do the exact same things that you say are exclusive to the LFA! What is so broken about the super car that it needs Lexus values to make it relavent again?
No matter what you say to stick up for the LFA, and how much engineering Lexus does via press release the LFA is a victim of an inflated budget and excessive development period. That the LFA has the faults that it does in no way surprise me. I am amazed by its value being based on things told to you by them as part of the marketing strategy.
I don't care that the Lexus reaches redline in .06 seconds when I have to drive it to within an inch of its life just to stay in front on a GTR. I don't care that its fully carbon fiber when it weighs the thick side of 3500 lbs. In my humble opinion this a super car that is attempting to break the mold, but it in no way shape or form does anything innovative or new despite marketings attempts to say otherwise.
You act as if its competition does not do the exact same things that you say are exclusive to the LFA! What is so broken about the super car that it needs Lexus values to make it relavent again?
#53
05-24-2010, 07:38 PM
Here's where I got your "most car guys" comment from:
"Its the performance thats at issue with most car dudes not its rarity, cache etc imho"
Do "most car guys" think the Reventon is a ripoff? How about a Murcielago SV which is no faster than a ZR1?
GT-R...do you seriously think Nissan are turning a profit on that car? Which car do you suppose took more development time and R&D resources, 550 or GT-R? The Nissan is a "low end car" which happens to blow many higher-end cars out of the water.
Again, I was not comparing Toyota to Pagani. But if you must continue on that, at least Toyota have some reputation for quality cars when they offered the LFA, unlike Pagani. This was also a factor in the purchasing decision of some. They were used to Lexus products, knew what to expect, and can be comfortable knowing Lexus provides better long-term support of the product than many other exotic companies. Lexus appears to have given considerable weight to previous Lexus owners in their allocation decisions.
How do you come to the conclusion that I assumed you said they shouldn't have built it? I was merely asking a question to get a response. Wow, talk about "assuming things that dont appear in someones post eh."
I don't object to that opinion, but I will counter that Lexus don't need to even consider that. They already have more buyers than they'd planned.
Looks is hugely subjective. Have you seen the kinds of art that sell for $100M? There were plenty of forum comments that were not favorable to the Enzo when it came out.
I would also like to know how "most car dudes" see the worth in the Black Series you mentioned.
"Its the performance thats at issue with most car dudes not its rarity, cache etc imho"
Do "most car guys" think the Reventon is a ripoff? How about a Murcielago SV which is no faster than a ZR1?
GT-R...do you seriously think Nissan are turning a profit on that car? Which car do you suppose took more development time and R&D resources, 550 or GT-R? The Nissan is a "low end car" which happens to blow many higher-end cars out of the water.
Again, I was not comparing Toyota to Pagani. But if you must continue on that, at least Toyota have some reputation for quality cars when they offered the LFA, unlike Pagani. This was also a factor in the purchasing decision of some. They were used to Lexus products, knew what to expect, and can be comfortable knowing Lexus provides better long-term support of the product than many other exotic companies. Lexus appears to have given considerable weight to previous Lexus owners in their allocation decisions.
How do you come to the conclusion that I assumed you said they shouldn't have built it? I was merely asking a question to get a response. Wow, talk about "assuming things that dont appear in someones post eh."
I don't object to that opinion, but I will counter that Lexus don't need to even consider that. They already have more buyers than they'd planned.
Looks is hugely subjective. Have you seen the kinds of art that sell for $100M? There were plenty of forum comments that were not favorable to the Enzo when it came out.
I would also like to know how "most car dudes" see the worth in the Black Series you mentioned.
Hmm the black Series looks incredible, mean and sinister and would rape the LF-A in a straight line and maybe twisties. Its a known quantity. The LF-A hasnt beaten anything other than the entry level GTR. Do you really want to see it go against other entry level supercars like the ACR or ZR1?
Unfortunately for you performance does count to MOST car guys. You cant just pluck your head in the sand and pretend that it shouldnt count, because of this and that, especially considering its astronomical cost and the serious competition. To me since Lexus has to price this car this high and still not break even, they should have just gave this incredibly built car 1000hp and sell it for 600k-1 mil and be done with it. It would have sold to the same car guys that play in that stratified air. And they would probably have made a profit not to mention put this car where it deserves to be.
I swear the Lexus LF-A and the GTR are like the automotive equivalent to Barack Obama. If you say anything of merit based on there performance you get a stern talking to, chastized and labeled
.Anyway this back and forth is really moot as the car is just a test bed for future Toyota products so it has met its corporate goal. Us car guys see it for what it is and it is incredible but it could have been so much more had they had the desire to take it there.
#54
05-24-2010, 09:36 PM
Hmm the black Series looks incredible, mean and sinister and would rape the LF-A in a straight line and maybe twisties. Its a known quantity.
Unfortunately for you performance does count to MOST car guys. You cant just pluck your head in the sand and pretend that it shouldnt count, because of this and that, especially considering its astronomical cost and the serious competition.
Us car guys see it for what it is and it is incredible but it could have been so much more had they had the desire to take it there.
Unfortunately for you performance does count to MOST car guys. You cant just pluck your head in the sand and pretend that it shouldnt count, because of this and that, especially considering its astronomical cost and the serious competition.
Us car guys see it for what it is and it is incredible but it could have been so much more had they had the desire to take it there.
And maybe twisties? Did you notice that the BS's dry TopGear lap was slower than the LFA's wet lap? It's also slower on Motor Trend's figure-8 (24.6 vs 23.9) and pulls fewer g's (0.96g vs 1.05g) and takes longer for braking (60-0 in 105 vs 94 ft). And the BS is on fatter tires even.
Isn't the BS of questionable value when an ACR will kill it on a track for a fraction of the price? It's also slower than the ZR1. Yes, it is a "known quantity": it's known to be slower, yet costing far, far more.
I didn't say performance doesn't count to most car guys. The question is: Does it count more than anything else? There are also car guys who look at different things in a car, with different priorities.
Even if the LFA were no faster than a Z06...is the Z06 a slow performer? Does it not satisfy car guys who are looking for performance?
Wait, now you're saying the LFA is incredible...what's so incredible about it?
#56
05-24-2010, 11:20 PM
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He never answered my last post, nothing I said in the original title of this thread has been proven wrong. The LFA provides less than Z06 performance for the price of a 599 GTB and that is absolute fact. We are talking about performance cars so of course performance is important, but also there are a lot of intangibles when it comes to a super car purchase. " Soul " is not a quantifiable value I understand that, but it is something that Japanese sports cars have been criticized for recently.
All of the magazine reviews done by professionals have raised the same question, is Lexus crazy for offering a car that performs like it does but costs more than its better, more established competition? They also agree that the LFA's entirely too long development period is the reason for its faults and it competing well with last generations exotics. The game has changed Ferrari is now on top of its game, Lambo is firing on all cylinders, Mclaren is bringing their A game to the table and even Noble has been praised despite its exorbitant price tag!
All of the magazine reviews done by professionals have raised the same question, is Lexus crazy for offering a car that performs like it does but costs more than its better, more established competition? They also agree that the LFA's entirely too long development period is the reason for its faults and it competing well with last generations exotics. The game has changed Ferrari is now on top of its game, Lambo is firing on all cylinders, Mclaren is bringing their A game to the table and even Noble has been praised despite its exorbitant price tag!
#57
05-24-2010, 11:24 PM
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My question to you is if performance is not very important, than is the wow look at me factor and the exclusivity of exclusive cars more important? Does not the known quantity, quality and community that you get when you buy a Lamborghini or Ferrari not outweigh if a car is produced 500 total or 600 total or 1000 total?
Could you buy an LFA and truthfully believe that you bought the best car in its class? All taken as a whole, is the LFA the best car in its class?
Could you buy an LFA and truthfully believe that you bought the best car in its class? All taken as a whole, is the LFA the best car in its class?
#58
05-24-2010, 11:42 PM
I also noticed you didn't answer plenty of my other posts. Like: "Are you currently in a position to afford the 458's MSRP? What Lexus forums are you a member of?"
Give it a shot. I'm interested in hearing your answers.
All of them? List them, with links/sources please.
#59
05-24-2010, 11:46 PM
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Please list the people who believe the LFA is worth $375k and are actually buying one not the fan boys blindly defending a car they have never driven! This is 6 speed online not CVT hybrid online of course we value performance! Were not talking about economy cars here!
#60
05-24-2010, 11:51 PM
My question to you is if performance is not very important, than is the wow look at me factor and the exclusivity of exclusive cars more important? Does not the known quantity, quality and community that you get when you buy a Lamborghini or Ferrari not outweigh if a car is produced 500 total or 600 total or 1000 total?
Could you buy an LFA and truthfully believe that you bought the best car in its class? All taken as a whole, is the LFA the best car in its class?
Could you buy an LFA and truthfully believe that you bought the best car in its class? All taken as a whole, is the LFA the best car in its class?
Nope. If you want to buy a car for "community," by all means get those cars. If you buy a car because you like it, it really shouldn't matter if you'll be accepted into some high-class car clubs. With the LFA, I doubt Ferrari owners are so snobbish that they'll look down on it.
It doesn't have to be best in class. Going by your logic, a person can only buy one car and feel fully satisfied that he's made the "right" purchasing decision, because there can only ever be one "best" car. All that matters is that the car is right for him. If he likes everything else about the car, why not? Do you honestly think Aston drivers give two ****s that their cars aren't a fast as a Ferrari and doesn't carry the same prestige? I mean seriously. Who outside of middle-schoolers give such a crap about such things?
For example, the BMW 3-Series is considered the class benchmark. Is a person who chooses a Mercedes or Audi or Cadillac or Lexus or Infiniti making the wrong purchasing choice? I'm going to take your words and logically apply it here: Could you buy an Mercedes and truthfully believe you bought the best car in its class?