Considering a Macan S: your input appreciated
#31
You are spot on as far as your assessment, in fact I have been thinking hard about this ever since the Macan S and T specs were revealed. The relative pricing differential between an "S" and "T" (Macan) model seems unprecedented for Porsche and offers a very compelling argument to step up to the T from the S.
The real issue is that by virtue of both the S and T being V6 TT cars, the demarkation line is not as noticeable vs an S and T model in the 911/Cayenne/Panamera lines (granted now the Pannie S moved to FI, but the S is a V6TT vs a V8TT on the Turbo so again that difference is not close to being bridged). With FI engines, its a mere software 'fix' to make the power rating change by whatever a manufacturer deems it wants to rate it at (be it for insurance purposes, or external competition comparos, internal/cross-model gap basis, etc.)
The Macan S can be easily rated not at 340, but 320, 380, or the 420 it is at in the Pannie S. Ditto for the Turbo, it can be 380, 400, 420, etc. And I can bet we will see that in the GTS (a higher tune Macan S 3.0TT engine) and the Turbo S (a higher tune Macan T 3.6TT engine).
Lastly, what makes the decision tougher for me personally is that when I spec a Macan S as desired, there is relatively little that stands in its way in terms of competition. But for an equally optioned T, and all of a sudden it is more of a general question of whether at the end of the day I want to spend $85K plus on a 'compact SUV'. Decisions, decisions...
The real issue is that by virtue of both the S and T being V6 TT cars, the demarkation line is not as noticeable vs an S and T model in the 911/Cayenne/Panamera lines (granted now the Pannie S moved to FI, but the S is a V6TT vs a V8TT on the Turbo so again that difference is not close to being bridged). With FI engines, its a mere software 'fix' to make the power rating change by whatever a manufacturer deems it wants to rate it at (be it for insurance purposes, or external competition comparos, internal/cross-model gap basis, etc.)
The Macan S can be easily rated not at 340, but 320, 380, or the 420 it is at in the Pannie S. Ditto for the Turbo, it can be 380, 400, 420, etc. And I can bet we will see that in the GTS (a higher tune Macan S 3.0TT engine) and the Turbo S (a higher tune Macan T 3.6TT engine).
Lastly, what makes the decision tougher for me personally is that when I spec a Macan S as desired, there is relatively little that stands in its way in terms of competition. But for an equally optioned T, and all of a sudden it is more of a general question of whether at the end of the day I want to spend $85K plus on a 'compact SUV'. Decisions, decisions...
#32
Good discussion all around here, guys. A couple points of clarification:
- PASM is standard on the Turbo, AS is an option. Both are options on an S.
- the Turbo is .6 sec faster 0-60 than the S (4.6s vs 5.2s) according to the P USA specs. Still not sure the .2 makes it more worth it, but as yrralis1 mentioned, the Turbo leaves no doubt.
I really think the S is a relative bargain for the price
- PASM is standard on the Turbo, AS is an option. Both are options on an S.
- the Turbo is .6 sec faster 0-60 than the S (4.6s vs 5.2s) according to the P USA specs. Still not sure the .2 makes it more worth it, but as yrralis1 mentioned, the Turbo leaves no doubt.
I really think the S is a relative bargain for the price
#33
Good discussion all around here, guys. A couple points of clarification:
- PASM is standard on the Turbo, AS is an option. Both are options on an S.
- the Turbo is .6 sec faster 0-60 than the S (4.6s vs 5.2s) according to the P USA specs. Still not sure the .2 makes it more worth it, but as yrralis1 mentioned, the Turbo leaves no doubt.
I really think the S is a relative bargain for the price
- PASM is standard on the Turbo, AS is an option. Both are options on an S.
- the Turbo is .6 sec faster 0-60 than the S (4.6s vs 5.2s) according to the P USA specs. Still not sure the .2 makes it more worth it, but as yrralis1 mentioned, the Turbo leaves no doubt.
I really think the S is a relative bargain for the price
I agree with the relative bargain aspect of the S, especially when I see so many other cars and SUV's above that price point these days. Since I prefer a smaller SUV for maneuverability and sportiness, and I don't need a lot of storage space, the Macan is much more attractive to me than a SQ5 or Cayenne. I'm hoping it will adequately replace both my 06 C2S cab and my 01 RAV4 beater, and serve all my needs with one vehicle rather than 2. Not expecting it to behave like a 911 by any means, but still be more fun than most SUVs.
#34
Can't wait to get your feedback. I think you said you hadn't ordered yet, so assume your delivery will be near end of the year?
My timing is less rushed, since I have another year to sell my 997 with sufficient remaining extended warranty on it. Being naturally cautious, I at least want to see a Macan in real life, sit in one, and hopefully even drive one (or 2: S and Turbo) so that I know exactly what I want before putting in an order. At least it won't be long now before first deliveries take place and we start getting some feedback here from new owners.
BTW, since I think you're in the business, what is your assessment of how soon Porsche will bring the diesel Macan to NA? My salesman said he thinks it will be a few years, since it costs $3million to have the US government certify it. He also based it on how the Cayenne models were released.
My timing is less rushed, since I have another year to sell my 997 with sufficient remaining extended warranty on it. Being naturally cautious, I at least want to see a Macan in real life, sit in one, and hopefully even drive one (or 2: S and Turbo) so that I know exactly what I want before putting in an order. At least it won't be long now before first deliveries take place and we start getting some feedback here from new owners.
BTW, since I think you're in the business, what is your assessment of how soon Porsche will bring the diesel Macan to NA? My salesman said he thinks it will be a few years, since it costs $3million to have the US government certify it. He also based it on how the Cayenne models were released.
As for myself . i don't sell cars and have no affiliation with any car dealerships . I simply love cars and talk to a lot of guys like myself who also love cars in order to gain insight and ideas . Also I have always been able to follow the prices of the cars . That comes from years of buying Porsches and learning about resale . When younger I followed it closely mostly because I did not know if I would be able to afford my next Porsche .
I speculate the Macan at this moment is a new player in the game with huge potential at a very attractive price point .
Last edited by yrralis1; 03-22-2014 at 11:28 PM.
#35
Good discussion all around here, guys. A couple points of clarification:
- PASM is standard on the Turbo, AS is an option. Both are options on an S.
- the Turbo is .6 sec faster 0-60 than the S (4.6s vs 5.2s) according to the P USA specs. Still not sure the .2 makes it more worth it, but as yrralis1 mentioned, the Turbo leaves no doubt.
I really think the S is a relative bargain for the price
- PASM is standard on the Turbo, AS is an option. Both are options on an S.
- the Turbo is .6 sec faster 0-60 than the S (4.6s vs 5.2s) according to the P USA specs. Still not sure the .2 makes it more worth it, but as yrralis1 mentioned, the Turbo leaves no doubt.
I really think the S is a relative bargain for the price
Also keep in mind that on a Turbo car the sport chrono provides a brief overboost function . It's a huge enough difference to see a .2 benefit just to 60 MPH .
#36
Lastly, what makes the decision tougher for me personally is that when I spec a Macan S as desired, there is relatively little that stands in its way in terms of competition. But for an equally optioned T, and all of a sudden it is more of a general question of whether at the end of the day I want to spend $85K plus on a 'compact SUV'.
Yep a Turbo is expensive if one considers it just a small SUV but I view the Macan Turbo as the next great Porsche and the first crop of buyers are the pioneers in capturing this moment in automotive history. Ok I am joking !! Somewhat !! But I am excited about the Macan !!!!
If you don't buy the car then at least you can live vicariously through whatever anyone posts about their experiences until you firmly decide yay or nay.
One last point .. if one buys a 73K macan S he will have a very nicely speced great vehicle . If he spends 87K the extra 14K goes a long way .
My logic is that if I am going in deep the extra stretch is what it takes to never second guess it . I do believe that a macan s owner might long for a Turbo but I am not so sure if the visa versa will be the case .
I had both choices .. picked the Turbo with that logic in mind.
#37
I agree 100% with your analysis. Given that the difference in power between the S and the Turbo only results in about .4 sec improvement in 0-60 time, I expect the feel and responsiveness of the S would be fine for me. I'm not going to drag race with other people. In fact, a diesel with more torque but slower 0-60 could FEEL faster, which is why I'd love to try one.
#38
In my teen years (1970's) I recall overhearing a debate where two adults were discussing a 911 . One turned to the other and said " I can't see spending 17 thousand dollars on a supped up Volkswagon" .
Yep a Turbo is expensive if one considers it just a small SUV but I view the Macan Turbo as the next great Porsche and the first crop of buyers are the pioneers in capturing this moment in automotive history. Ok I am joking !! Somewhat !! But I am excited about the Macan !!!!
If you don't buy the car then at least you can live vicariously through whatever anyone posts about their experiences until you firmly decide yay or nay.
One last point .. if one buys a 73K macan S he will have a very nicely speced great vehicle . If he spends 87K the extra 14K goes a long way .
My logic is that if I am going in deep the extra stretch is what it takes to never second guess it . I do believe that a macan s owner might long for a Turbo but I am not so sure if the visa versa will be the case .
I had both choices .. picked the Turbo with that logic in mind.
Yep a Turbo is expensive if one considers it just a small SUV but I view the Macan Turbo as the next great Porsche and the first crop of buyers are the pioneers in capturing this moment in automotive history. Ok I am joking !! Somewhat !! But I am excited about the Macan !!!!
If you don't buy the car then at least you can live vicariously through whatever anyone posts about their experiences until you firmly decide yay or nay.
One last point .. if one buys a 73K macan S he will have a very nicely speced great vehicle . If he spends 87K the extra 14K goes a long way .
My logic is that if I am going in deep the extra stretch is what it takes to never second guess it . I do believe that a macan s owner might long for a Turbo but I am not so sure if the visa versa will be the case .
I had both choices .. picked the Turbo with that logic in mind.
So with almost Porsche engineer-like obsession, I keep going back and forth as to possible scenarios. I wholeheartedly agree that a lightly optioned Turbo > than a highly optioned S. So I took out my trusty excel (I admit I am a geek) and ran some numbers. Thx to slw23's clarification on the PASM being included in the Turbo (vs. air suspension being optional, my initial misunderstanding was the vice versa), the numbers have changed somewhat, such that the delta between my as-desired build Macan S in post 1 vs. an equivalent Turbo has shrunk. What is a $22,400 base price difference, once optioned to my specific liking, results in a $12,535 apples-to-apples (from an equipment perspective) basis. In fact, if I were to be really strict about it, and 'add back' items that are in the base Turbo, such as Bose/Steering wheel heating, etc., that number is really $10K (though for me personally those options do not have value and I would not have paid for them, hence the 12.5K is the real/pragmatic number I should look at).
I can reasonably assume that the relative level of depreciation of the Turbos will be no less than the Ss (in fact, perhaps an argument can be made they will depreciate less as they will undoubtedly be more desirable in the secondary market). With that 'fair' assumption, the way I look at it - the premium one pays at inception, is more or less returned upon resale (so following the example I gave above, in 2/3/...x yrs from now, a Turbo would likely sell at a $10K premium to an equivalent S).
If it seems like I am leading/convincing myself to jump on the Turbo, you are probably correct However, what that has also made me do is go back and consider which options are really 'essential' in a potential Macan ownership. For example, dropping the garnet red full leather and alcantara roof liner makes a pretty big difference on the S (over $5.5K reduction), but rather little on the Turbo ($2K, as it comes standard with leather and alcantara roofliner). So while I am no where closer to a firm decision than I was when I started this thread, at least I feel the options now in front of me are: Lightly optioned S vs lightly optioned Turbo. Which only reinforces your thoughts/logic above as far as going in deep down the stretch ('lite' Turbo >>> 'heavily optioned' S)
At least I have the benefit of time to agonize over before ultimately deciding. There is a delay for panorama spec'ed Macans (Porsche didn't expect such a high take rate), Saphire Blue continues to remain an unknown, and with dealers seemingly sticking to MSRP, perhaps time is an 'ally'...
#39
Thanks for your feedback and candor. Agree in whole with what you said. Certainly you are correct in the second-guessing game. I do not see many Turbo owners lamenting and pounding their head whether they should have picked the 'lesser' Macan S, and I can see many if not most S owners longing for the Turbo.
So with almost Porsche engineer-like obsession, I keep going back and forth as to possible scenarios. I wholeheartedly agree that a lightly optioned Turbo > than a highly optioned S. So I took out my trusty excel (I admit I am a geek) and ran some numbers. Thx to slw23's clarification on the PASM being included in the Turbo (vs. air suspension being optional, my initial misunderstanding was the vice versa), the numbers have changed somewhat, such that the delta between my as-desired build Macan S in post 1 vs. an equivalent Turbo has shrunk. What is a $22,400 base price difference, once optioned to my specific liking, results in a $12,535 apples-to-apples (from an equipment perspective) basis. In fact, if I were to be really strict about it, and 'add back' items that are in the base Turbo, such as Bose/Steering wheel heating, etc., that number is really $10K (though for me personally those options do not have value and I would not have paid for them, hence the 12.5K is the real/pragmatic number I should look at).
I can reasonably assume that the relative level of depreciation of the Turbos will be no less than the Ss (in fact, perhaps an argument can be made they will depreciate less as they will undoubtedly be more desirable in the secondary market). With that 'fair' assumption, the way I look at it - the premium one pays at inception, is more or less returned upon resale (so following the example I gave above, in 2/3/...x yrs from now, a Turbo would likely sell at a $10K premium to an equivalent S).
If it seems like I am leading/convincing myself to jump on the Turbo, you are probably correct However, what that has also made me do is go back and consider which options are really 'essential' in a potential Macan ownership. For example, dropping the garnet red full leather and alcantara roof liner makes a pretty big difference on the S (over $5.5K reduction), but rather little on the Turbo ($2K, as it comes standard with leather and alcantara roofliner). So while I am no where closer to a firm decision than I was when I started this thread, at least I feel the options now in front of me are: Lightly optioned S vs lightly optioned Turbo. Which only reinforces your thoughts/logic above as far as going in deep down the stretch ('lite' Turbo >>> 'heavily optioned' S)
At least I have the benefit of time to agonize over before ultimately deciding. There is a delay for panorama spec'ed Macans (Porsche didn't expect such a high take rate), Saphire Blue continues to remain an unknown, and with dealers seemingly sticking to MSRP, perhaps time is an 'ally'...
So with almost Porsche engineer-like obsession, I keep going back and forth as to possible scenarios. I wholeheartedly agree that a lightly optioned Turbo > than a highly optioned S. So I took out my trusty excel (I admit I am a geek) and ran some numbers. Thx to slw23's clarification on the PASM being included in the Turbo (vs. air suspension being optional, my initial misunderstanding was the vice versa), the numbers have changed somewhat, such that the delta between my as-desired build Macan S in post 1 vs. an equivalent Turbo has shrunk. What is a $22,400 base price difference, once optioned to my specific liking, results in a $12,535 apples-to-apples (from an equipment perspective) basis. In fact, if I were to be really strict about it, and 'add back' items that are in the base Turbo, such as Bose/Steering wheel heating, etc., that number is really $10K (though for me personally those options do not have value and I would not have paid for them, hence the 12.5K is the real/pragmatic number I should look at).
I can reasonably assume that the relative level of depreciation of the Turbos will be no less than the Ss (in fact, perhaps an argument can be made they will depreciate less as they will undoubtedly be more desirable in the secondary market). With that 'fair' assumption, the way I look at it - the premium one pays at inception, is more or less returned upon resale (so following the example I gave above, in 2/3/...x yrs from now, a Turbo would likely sell at a $10K premium to an equivalent S).
If it seems like I am leading/convincing myself to jump on the Turbo, you are probably correct However, what that has also made me do is go back and consider which options are really 'essential' in a potential Macan ownership. For example, dropping the garnet red full leather and alcantara roof liner makes a pretty big difference on the S (over $5.5K reduction), but rather little on the Turbo ($2K, as it comes standard with leather and alcantara roofliner). So while I am no where closer to a firm decision than I was when I started this thread, at least I feel the options now in front of me are: Lightly optioned S vs lightly optioned Turbo. Which only reinforces your thoughts/logic above as far as going in deep down the stretch ('lite' Turbo >>> 'heavily optioned' S)
At least I have the benefit of time to agonize over before ultimately deciding. There is a delay for panorama spec'ed Macans (Porsche didn't expect such a high take rate), Saphire Blue continues to remain an unknown, and with dealers seemingly sticking to MSRP, perhaps time is an 'ally'...
I do agree on all the price configurations expressed in your post . It's somewhat amusing to see the wheels of thought processing the various mathematical combinations. You are not alone !!
I do not believe that time is an ally . The cool colors ,facelifted and improved Cayenne , and refreshed 2015 991 all point to more choices accross the Porsche board and my guess is that prices on everything will go upward . I also feel that whatever car is being traded in will be worth less too .
Two questions -
1) Do you want to guess the 1/4 mile time of a Macan Turbo ? It's not on the Porsche website .
2) Do you want to guess the Nurburgring lap time ? It also is not on the Porsche website .
I wonder if the numbers are so good that if they were available as official then how would Porsche sell the cars still sitting in inventory as quickly ?
I realize the colors are somewhat plain vanillla . I'll take my vanillla Macan Turbo sight unseen nor test driven because I truly hope and speculate that these are the ground floor prices to own a spectacular vehicle .
#40
I'm so relieved that you guys are so much like I am in all this data analysis, and that I'm not the only one who thinks this way. Of course, I think we all pretend this type of analysis generates a logical answer to a question that ultimately our emotional side will answer LOL. We'll each buy the one we want, because nobody can precisely predict the cost of depreciation in a fluctuating market environment.
I'm not clear about your final questions yrralis1, regarding how would Porsche sell their cars sitting in inventory if we knew the 1/4 mile and Nurburgring times. Are you suggesting the times would be disappointing and therefore hurt sales?
Keep it up guys. I'm lovin' it.
I'm not clear about your final questions yrralis1, regarding how would Porsche sell their cars sitting in inventory if we knew the 1/4 mile and Nurburgring times. Are you suggesting the times would be disappointing and therefore hurt sales?
Keep it up guys. I'm lovin' it.
#41
I'm so relieved that you guys are so much like I am in all this data analysis, and that I'm not the only one who thinks this way. Of course, I think we all pretend this type of analysis generates a logical answer to a question that ultimately our emotional side will answer LOL. We'll each buy the one we want, because nobody can precisely predict the cost of depreciation in a fluctuating market environment.
I'm not clear about your final questions yrralis1, regarding how would Porsche sell their cars sitting in inventory if we knew the 1/4 mile and Nurburgring times. Are you suggesting the times would be disappointing and therefore hurt sales?
Keep it up guys. I'm lovin' it.
I'm not clear about your final questions yrralis1, regarding how would Porsche sell their cars sitting in inventory if we knew the 1/4 mile and Nurburgring times. Are you suggesting the times would be disappointing and therefore hurt sales?
Keep it up guys. I'm lovin' it.
Imagine a car with :
1) nearly as much space as a Cayenne
2) nearly as fast as a 911
3) and priced like a Cayman S
If this car pulls the upper 12's/low 13's in the 1/4 mi.
If this car produces the fastest Porsche SUV Nurburgring time
Then
Everyone will want to at least wait and see it while some of the other cars sit unsold .
#44
I doubt there will be much difference. Looking at the current cars:
Panamera S: 17/27
Panamera Turbo: 15/24
Panamera Turbo S: 15/24
Cayenne 3.6 V6: 17/23
Cayenne S (4.8 V8): 16/22
Cayenne Turbo: 15/22
I think anyone thinking they want a turbo won't be put off by a loss of a couple of miles per gallon. I know I wouldn't. The delta in the avg fuel cost per year in the above examples is in the order of $150-$200 per year! I finally figured out a while back that, due to my fairly low miles per year (likely about half of normal) my fuel cost is the least important issue compared to tires, insurance, service, and of course depreciation. So my decision for a S or Turbo will be based on my needs and desires, and how important the extra $12-20k purchase cost is to me.
Panamera S: 17/27
Panamera Turbo: 15/24
Panamera Turbo S: 15/24
Cayenne 3.6 V6: 17/23
Cayenne S (4.8 V8): 16/22
Cayenne Turbo: 15/22
I think anyone thinking they want a turbo won't be put off by a loss of a couple of miles per gallon. I know I wouldn't. The delta in the avg fuel cost per year in the above examples is in the order of $150-$200 per year! I finally figured out a while back that, due to my fairly low miles per year (likely about half of normal) my fuel cost is the least important issue compared to tires, insurance, service, and of course depreciation. So my decision for a S or Turbo will be based on my needs and desires, and how important the extra $12-20k purchase cost is to me.
#45
Thanks to this thread and the info I gained here, I decided to go Turbo. Only could get a couple options. After configuring a S to near $73k I'll admit it was hard to let go of some of the flashy options I'd selected and go a rather plain Turbo build....but I'd have always wondered about the 3.6. Biggest option I had to settle was wheels. Thinking of running 2 sets later on when the budget will allow. Bound to be some awesome choices soon aftermarket.