Production Base GT-R to hit 7:24 at the Nurburgring in April 09
#46
03-18-2009, 12:43 PM
I don't agree, most of the cars we have today are bordering on street cars. Just as easy to bust the front lip on many of the other cars. And you see half wings on many other cars where this is the real thing. The only level playing field is tires IMO, after that it's fair game for a street legal production car. Otherwise leveling the playing field will make the circus even bigger because X person has forced induction or more cubes, or adjustable coilovers and the list goes on.
While I think the ZR-1 would beat the ACR with similar aero, it should because it has lots more hp. But the ACR is still better for it's intended purpose. NA > SC all day on the track.
ACR fanboy FTW.
While I think the ZR-1 would beat the ACR with similar aero, it should because it has lots more hp. But the ACR is still better for it's intended purpose. NA > SC all day on the track.
ACR fanboy FTW.
Dez,The ACR is "track-ready" right out of the box.
To "level the playing field" comparing the ACR with any factory stock sports car,
you need to add...
Aero
Big Rear Wing
Adjustable shocks (coilovers)
Suspension set-up & alignment
Dot " R " compound tires
Racing brake pads... even with CCM rotors
Dodge's Mighty ACR Viper comes with this equipment.
For magazine tests... Dodge has even provided "on-site" engineers "tweaking" the ACR's set-up.
I'm not sure the ZR1 is the best Corvette for the track, given the results @ VIR last summer. Five or six ZR1's along with Corvette engineers (who admitted spending many manhours on cooling issues) came down from the factory. Late in the afternoon the ZR1's were showing signs of getting "heat-soaked"...
but then... those cars were on the track almost continuously.
Last edited by trumperZ06; 03-18-2009 at 12:46 PM.
#47
03-18-2009, 01:45 PM
Easy. I've already explained to HC that the CTS-V recorded a 175mph top speed at the same point where the GT-R recorded a 180mph top speed on the Nurburgring.
The CTS-V has the same p/w ratio as the GT-R but has greater drivetrain losses (about 3% worse) and is pushing 32% greater Cda (drag area) with only 15% more power. So beyond 140mph, where aerodynamics determine acceleration the GT-R will be faster. Even more so because the CTS-V they used had a slushbox automatic with only 5 usable ratios versus the GT-R's 6 usable solidly linked ratios.
Knowing this, the GT-R's 180mph top speed makes perfect sense and there is simply no reason why the GT-R should be slower than the CTS-V.
It is the ZR1 which is the anomaly in this whole mix. It's top speed should have been much higher.
The CTS-V has the same p/w ratio as the GT-R but has greater drivetrain losses (about 3% worse) and is pushing 32% greater Cda (drag area) with only 15% more power. So beyond 140mph, where aerodynamics determine acceleration the GT-R will be faster. Even more so because the CTS-V they used had a slushbox automatic with only 5 usable ratios versus the GT-R's 6 usable solidly linked ratios.
Knowing this, the GT-R's 180mph top speed makes perfect sense and there is simply no reason why the GT-R should be slower than the CTS-V.
It is the ZR1 which is the anomaly in this whole mix. It's top speed should have been much higher.
#48
03-18-2009, 01:51 PM
R-comps are common place these days. GM is just too stupid to offer them at least as an option. They made strides with the ZR-1 PS2's, but those should be on the Z06 and MPSC optional for both. Any real sports car should have them as an option.
I don't know what cars you have in mind, but even with those things the ACR would still beat pretty much everything. The achilles heel of the Viper, much like the Z06 is rear end traction. With this type of aero and tires, that is what levels the playing field. With the mods you listed I'd venture to say that nothing would be faster than the Viper, the Z06 would be second because it doesn't have as much power and torque to overcome the increased drag created by the downforce.
Other than the Z06 and a GT2 what realistic cars (meaning other than the unobtanium for most, the kind you'll never ever see at a track, cars) are those mods going to put in front of the ACR???
I don't know what cars you have in mind, but even with those things the ACR would still beat pretty much everything. The achilles heel of the Viper, much like the Z06 is rear end traction. With this type of aero and tires, that is what levels the playing field. With the mods you listed I'd venture to say that nothing would be faster than the Viper, the Z06 would be second because it doesn't have as much power and torque to overcome the increased drag created by the downforce.
Other than the Z06 and a GT2 what realistic cars (meaning other than the unobtanium for most, the kind you'll never ever see at a track, cars) are those mods going to put in front of the ACR???
#49
03-18-2009, 01:56 PM
HP weight rules in EVERY form of racing, it's biggest cole criteria for classing of vehicles.
But of course you buy Nissan's advertising and "insert bs here" logic that this crap you are talking about somehow will morph the GT-R down a straight faster than cars that rape it in all the acceleration data.
Panels underneath the car are commonplace genius. Nissan didn't invent that. It's been on Porsche's from before 2000. And garaunteed to be on every car that's been mentioned in this comparison.
But of course you buy Nissan's advertising and "insert bs here" logic that this crap you are talking about somehow will morph the GT-R down a straight faster than cars that rape it in all the acceleration data.
Panels underneath the car are commonplace genius. Nissan didn't invent that. It's been on Porsche's from before 2000. And garaunteed to be on every car that's been mentioned in this comparison.
all this talk about hp/weight ratios...
i'm sure it has nothing to do with all of those panels underneath the car, equal downforce on both axles, and the ability to apply that power to the ground when most cars can't.
but, hey, don't let me get in the way of all you mag racers... uh hmm (heavychevy) cough...
get your face out of the magazines and out of the web's rumor mills, and come back to reality (you know, where people drive the cars, and make their own informed opinions - and not reading numbers in a magazine that makes you an expert on the car).
i'd like to hear about these many other drivers you mentioned.
and this was brought up in one of our other forums - how would you explain stig's time?
i'm sure it has nothing to do with all of those panels underneath the car, equal downforce on both axles, and the ability to apply that power to the ground when most cars can't.
but, hey, don't let me get in the way of all you mag racers... uh hmm (heavychevy) cough...
get your face out of the magazines and out of the web's rumor mills, and come back to reality (you know, where people drive the cars, and make their own informed opinions - and not reading numbers in a magazine that makes you an expert on the car).
i'd like to hear about these many other drivers you mentioned.
and this was brought up in one of our other forums - how would you explain stig's time?
#50
03-18-2009, 02:29 PM
[quote=heavychevy;2306973] I don't know what cars you have in mind....
Hhmmm Dez...
Let's review a few of the cars that were at the track events I attended in the past year.
Porsche Carrera GT
Porsche GT3RS
Porsche GT2
Porsche TT, some highly modified ~600/700 hp
Viper's both ACR's & SRT-10's
Audi R8's, we are waiting for next year's R8 with the V10
Ferrari 430's & 599's
Ford GT43
Lambo V10's
A couple of AMG Mercedes... nothing special though
Corvette Z06's... a whole host of C-6's, many well modified
up to ~ 650 rwhp.
Corvette ZR1's
An assortment of full race BMW's
A few ALMS GT-2's
So yes, we do see a few cars, when properly prep'ed, that could give a "stock" Viper ACR a good run.
Hhmmm Dez... Let's review a few of the cars that were at the track events I attended in the past year.
Porsche Carrera GT
Porsche GT3RS
Porsche GT2
Porsche TT, some highly modified ~600/700 hp
Viper's both ACR's & SRT-10's
Audi R8's, we are waiting for next year's R8 with the V10
Ferrari 430's & 599's
Ford GT43
Lambo V10's
A couple of AMG Mercedes... nothing special though
Corvette Z06's... a whole host of C-6's, many well modified
up to ~ 650 rwhp.
Corvette ZR1's
An assortment of full race BMW's
A few ALMS GT-2's
So yes, we do see a few cars, when properly prep'ed, that could give a "stock" Viper ACR a good run.
#51
03-18-2009, 02:37 PM
Oh, and I have seen a couple of GT-R's running with NASA.Chin had one or two show up @ VIR this fall... but I wasn't at that event.
I'm hearing good things about the GT-R's...
Respectfully fast & easy to drive quickly.
Easy to modify for additional power (ECU boost)
$$$ EXPENSIVE$$$ after market parts
Somewhat fragile.
#52
03-18-2009, 02:41 PM
Wayne, I meant stock cars with the mods you listed that could compete with the ACR. If we get into modding it can go anywhere. But for a stock car the ACR is the best thing going for mainly track, some street vehicle there is.
Of course used bang for the buck, the C5Z is still the best thing going with maybe an Evo 9 there and the 996 TT closing in rapidly in this economy.
But as for that list, I think you seriously underestimate the ACR, there isn't any BMW that will run with an ACR, nor is there a GT3 RS that hasn't had as much money put into it as a cup car. The Gen II Vipers, 996/7 TT would take some substantial modding similar to a C5Z to keep up.
Lambos aren't track cars. F430 would take a fortune, even a Scuderia would take a lot to keep up. The ACR is no joke man, I think you are cutting it WAY short.
Of course used bang for the buck, the C5Z is still the best thing going with maybe an Evo 9 there and the 996 TT closing in rapidly in this economy.
But as for that list, I think you seriously underestimate the ACR, there isn't any BMW that will run with an ACR, nor is there a GT3 RS that hasn't had as much money put into it as a cup car. The Gen II Vipers, 996/7 TT would take some substantial modding similar to a C5Z to keep up.
Lambos aren't track cars. F430 would take a fortune, even a Scuderia would take a lot to keep up. The ACR is no joke man, I think you are cutting it WAY short.
#53
03-18-2009, 03:04 PM
As much as I love my Vette, I have to agree with you....I mean does it get better than the Darth Vader black with the single red stripe down one side ACR? Plus with simple mods your at 700 hp N/A ...can you say track beast?
#54
03-18-2009, 03:09 PM
Wayne, I meant stock cars with the mods you listed that could compete with the ACR. If we get into modding it can go anywhere. But for a stock car the ACR is the best thing going for mainly track, some street vehicle there is.
Of course used bang for the buck, the C5Z is still the best thing going with maybe an Evo 9 there and the 996 TT closing in rapidly in this economy.
But as for that list, I think you seriously underestimate the ACR, there isn't any BMW that will run with an ACR, nor is there a GT3 RS that hasn't had as much money put into it as a cup car. The Gen II Vipers, 996/7 TT would take some substantial modding similar to a C5Z to keep up.
Lambos aren't track cars. F430 would take a fortune, even a Scuderia would take a lot to keep up. The ACR is no joke man, I think you are cutting it WAY short.
Of course used bang for the buck, the C5Z is still the best thing going with maybe an Evo 9 there and the 996 TT closing in rapidly in this economy.
But as for that list, I think you seriously underestimate the ACR, there isn't any BMW that will run with an ACR, nor is there a GT3 RS that hasn't had as much money put into it as a cup car. The Gen II Vipers, 996/7 TT would take some substantial modding similar to a C5Z to keep up.
Lambos aren't track cars. F430 would take a fortune, even a Scuderia would take a lot to keep up. The ACR is no joke man, I think you are cutting it WAY short.
Having instructed for Viper Days since 2001... I've got a good idea of the Viper's capability. Granted, I haven't seen a well driven new ACR @ the track, but the C-5 Z06's were able to run with the third gen. 2003/2006 Vipers.
Given that, I expect a good contest between a well prep'ed C6 Z06 vs. Dodge's Mighty ACR Viper.The cars I listed were in either advanced or instructor groups and were properly driven.
Last edited by trumperZ06; 03-18-2009 at 03:11 PM.
#55
03-18-2009, 04:30 PM
I wont argue with that, but we know you don't see the limits of much of anything at a DE. That Z06 better have some serious preparation to keep up with an ACR. And that's just a stock ACR.
Or a better driver, which I'm pretty sure Corvettes draw more and better drivers than Vipers hence the disparity in track results.
IMO the ACR is the king of the streets, at least unless you have a Zonda F in the area.
Or a better driver, which I'm pretty sure Corvettes draw more and better drivers than Vipers hence the disparity in track results.
IMO the ACR is the king of the streets, at least unless you have a Zonda F in the area.
#56
03-18-2009, 05:05 PM
ACR is the king of the tracks, the ZR1 the king of the streets....since its a car that actually has a little bit of GT car in it.
A T1 spec C5 , is probably going to be one of the easier and cheaper ways to a track weapon. Especially since some of the other cars, cough....cough....cough....with there big $$ fluids and proprietary onobtanium brake pads and adamantium reinforced tires cost a small mint to actually track!
A T1 spec C5 , is probably going to be one of the easier and cheaper ways to a track weapon. Especially since some of the other cars, cough....cough....cough....with there big $$ fluids and proprietary onobtanium brake pads and adamantium reinforced tires cost a small mint to actually track!
#57
03-18-2009, 05:29 PM
ACR is the king of the tracks, the ZR1 the king of the streets....since its a car that actually has a little bit of GT car in it.
A T1 spec C5 , is probably going to be one of the easier and cheaper ways to a track weapon. Especially since some of the other cars, cough....cough....cough....with there big $$ fluids and proprietary onobtanium brake pads and adamantium reinforced tires cost a small mint to actually track!
A T1 spec C5 , is probably going to be one of the easier and cheaper ways to a track weapon. Especially since some of the other cars, cough....cough....cough....with there big $$ fluids and proprietary onobtanium brake pads and adamantium reinforced tires cost a small mint to actually track!
Sigh....cough...cough...cough... You dont think decent tires for all the cars mentioned above dont cost over 250 a pop? with some maybe costing double that?
Mobil 1 oil/filter change cost $105 parts and labor at my dealer. The Transmission change really is something that I wont have to do since I am not tracking it day and nite but there are still other options that cost half or less of what Nissan wants. The same goes for rotors and Brake pads. The after market has stepped up on these parts and most are better than stock just like some of the other cars mentioned.
Yep your right heavy a ACR prolly is the best track preped weapon out there now
Let the drinking of the GTR-hateraid continue
#58
03-18-2009, 05:58 PM
Why are you GTR guys so sensitive, I was honestly talking about cars like the Enzo 
Cars that perform on a level where they should need proprietary fluid and ridiculous service costs.
Cars that perform on a level where they should need proprietary fluid and ridiculous service costs.
#59
03-18-2009, 06:08 PM
HP weight rules in EVERY form of racing, it's biggest cole criteria for classing of vehicles.
But of course you buy Nissan's advertising and "insert bs here" logic that this crap you are talking about somehow will morph the GT-R down a straight faster than cars that rape it in all the acceleration data.
Panels underneath the car are commonplace genius. Nissan didn't invent that. It's been on Porsche's from before 2000. And garaunteed to be on every car that's been mentioned in this comparison.
But of course you buy Nissan's advertising and "insert bs here" logic that this crap you are talking about somehow will morph the GT-R down a straight faster than cars that rape it in all the acceleration data.
Panels underneath the car are commonplace genius. Nissan didn't invent that. It's been on Porsche's from before 2000. And garaunteed to be on every car that's been mentioned in this comparison.
i'd like to see how this works out for you, but i've got an 11.2 i'm trying to get with a good launch.
let me know what cars i can't beat in stock form, because the car weighs almost 400lbs... because i'll be on the strip beating z06's (which i have, quite a few times).
i know a shelby gt500 that has about 425whp, but can't break into the 11's...
what is the hp/weight of a gto, or the new challenger srt-8? (i really don't know this)
#60
03-18-2009, 06:13 PM
i just got done getting pads, rotors, and tires - wasn't too bad.