My wife and I are just taken aback by your work. She is curious what your numbers were for the GT-R. You're obviously putting a LOT of thought into this, as it shouldn't be taken lightly.

 

So rarity determines the best cars on your list....interesting perspective, but one I do not fully understand. Move your MB over as my DeTomaso Pantera GTS is estimated to have 45-50 on the road (in the US).

Also, for any potential AM buyers-my Vantage has 23k trouble (major trouble) free miles. It has had 2 minor issues fixed and part of the leather on the dash replaced while under warranty. In my experience, they have outstanding service. This is a very different car from a service perspective than the DB7.

As for the Vette-AM correlation.....I do not get it. You have brought it up twice in a demeaning way. It is an absolutly beautiful car (you are spot on), that in my opinion had much more presence than the GTR when I tested it. True MT shows the Vantage as a (relatively) slow 0-60 car, but thats not what its about to people who acquire Vantages. Its the EXPERIENCE.

Vettes are straight line cars with shoddy interiors....

As for not a big deal, I guess its a matter of opinion but when I drive the Aston out they move it front and center. That is a big enough deal I guess, but not why I bought it.

 

As many have told me, I think the process and planning itself can be just as fun as actually owning the car, perhaps more so as anticipation builds. Being in Ohio, I really wanted to time this in the spring to maximize nice weather driving all spring/summer/fall, but most likely, I'm not going to feel ready to buy, especially since I'm finishing into my last semester in law school with finals and graduation and bar preperation crap to deal with in the next two months. Furthermore, finding out how expensive it is to own these types of cars, as opposed to just buy, is also making me apply some brakes. More or less, the equivalent of the sticker price might be lost entirely in 4-5 years of ownership, even if the car is still worth over 1/2 as much as what you paid for it .

The numbers I mentioned are VERY rough, probably spent about 20 minutes or so throwing some round educated darts in an excel sheet. But, I've attached the Excel sheet I did for an 07 and 10 vantage that pretty much breaks down and shows how I got those numbers. Would love some feedback so I can refine the numbers involved, including any categories I missed. I think my maintenance numbers might be too low, perhaps way to low if you need new brakes/cailpers, and those numbers are assuming you do as much of the work as possible yourself. I'm not paying AM $210 to change the oil if I can do it myself for $45.

I haven't done this yet for the GTR, or any other cars. On the fly, just looking at the Aston numbers, I'd expect the GTR to save about $7.5k over three years from not needing an extended warranty vs the 2007, have perhaps under 1/2 the maintainence costs as its two years newer and you can probably do more maintaince yourself with cheaper parts, get 30% better fuel economy, and perhaps save a few bucks on insurance as you have wider choices there. Depreciation may also be less than the Vantage despite being newer into the depreciation curve, but thats kinda a crapshoot depending on what Nissan does with the production numbers and what the overall economy does also. Importantly, as I mentioned about the 07 Vantage, those numbers don't include any visual or performance mods. Do I really have the will power to avoid tinkering? Probably not, and seeing the $6k here, $9k there, $7k there numbers around here, those mods will add HUGE costs to the Vantage if you participate. The GTR comes pretty much as you'd want it, not a lot you can even do to it except for maybe a aftermarket exhaust that will set you back $2k or so, or $4k if you want a fancy remote control optioned valve exhaust (yes please)...

So, very roughly, a used 2009 GTR never tracked with clean bill of health with sub 10k miles, purchased at $65k (so $10k less cash than 07 Vantage also means less opportunity cost of $, and also lower sales tax), under factory warranty with good tires/brakes, probably would cost out of pocket about $35-$40k over three years, driving it a comparable 5k miles per year like I calculated with the Aston....

Jasper, the problem, as you know is that there are so many variables. Tracking the car (track insurance, extreme wear on breaks/tires/oil/tranny fluid) will quite possibly raise the ownership costs as high or higher than the Vantage. Using it as a DD and doing more than 5k annual miles will also hurt depreciation. The numbers are also based on a fully warrantied car, so no catastrophic $20k transmission bills are assumed. Whatever Nissan does with future production numbers, and where the economy goes, will also affect depreciation. So, I'd guess the variance here to be +/- $20k+ over three years depending on if you track and put a lot of miles on the car.

This all boils down to the conclusion that very easily, over 4-5 years with either car (or any exotic), you could lose the equivalent value to your net worth as what you paid for the sticker price, even if the car retains over half its value and you later sell it.

Obviously, exotic cars are about passion, not financial sense. If you think about things like this, like how much you are paying on a daily average, you'll never enjoy the car. If its snowing outside and rather than having a surf n' turf dinner with a nice wine, I'm effectively paying $65 that day for my Vantage to sit in a garage, I'm going to be pissed. Rationally, to own something like this, you have to ignore these details or simply have enough money/income to not care. Still, more importantly, you'll also never enjoy the car if you allow it to wreck havoc on your otherwise stable and carefree economic lifestyle. I'm trying to do all of the above.

EDIT: The forum software doesn't support excel files, so I just took a screenshot of my numbers.

 

Again - impressive. You've hit it on the head. This is probably why I never figured all of this out.

I don't know if I'd consider the GT-R an exotic. You certainly get exotic performance, but without the exotic badge.

If the GT-R is driven daily (without track use), it becomes quite affordable (relatively). The only fees I've paid so far (besides 2 oil changes) are from track use.

The GT-R's are holding their value fairly well, as quantities are going wayyyy down this MY to keep demand where it is. And we are still looking at a 2013 end date (but as always, in the industry, anything can change at anytime).

 

I like the new 'Vette's too, especially the Z06 (and that one can corner very well). But I agree with the interior comment.

 

Mike, This is the worst news I have heard in all of 2010. I think im going to go uncork a bottle of gin.

 

Mike , I am in complete awe of your research! I have never come across a person doing so much research and homework on their cars. Kudos to you! And damn , you type a lot!!

Now I have skim read most of this thread , and as much as I want to say that the Vantage is the car for you (simply because you want it so much and you have put in so much work and effort into finding out the details that will convince you that you should get the vantage), I reckon you should get the GTR , and this is ofcourse , my humble opinion.

Based on what you have said , I guess the GTR will be relatively easier to live with , in terms of parking , driving and maintenance (again, I have not gone through the figures you posted) practicality and the GTR has unlimited mod potential to top it off. In terms of rarity vs rarity , the Aston's are always going to be rarer than most of the supercars on the street , simple because of their sheer class and style (again , I am not referring to any production numbers here ) , but the GTR takes the cake because of what all it stands for , and how it just pops up in a decade and changes the way supercars are perceived . Plus , with all this talk of the GTR production ending soon , it really turns out to be a must-have car on a priority basis .

God permitting , I am sure your business/profession will bring you a lot of good fortunes in the near future and I reckon that is the time you'd want to get a proper V12 Aston , as that is their most glorious of engines.

Again , I wish to applaud your effort and research into this matter , and I wholeheartedly support this , as I also believe that the research work before buying a car of this level is an essential part of the excitement.

 

5 years is the norm for models, no?

I wouldn't say the number of years in production is shorter than any other. The R32 '89-'94, R33 '95-'98. and R34 '99-'02. The R35 being in estimated production from 2009 (2008 Japan) - 2013 is right inline with previous models.

But I agree with ecks' perception of Mike's research. It's clear where his passion is, and I think after all of this, he might be 'settling' with the GT-R (which isn't a bad car to settle with), and might be easier to live with.

If the V12 Vantage came here, all of the problems would've been solved. I hope Aston learned something about that last model, and puts some power in their new model replacement for the Vantage right off the bat.

 

Agree with the HP issue. I spoke with a couple people at Aston and they are careful to not increase HP to impede upon more upscale models (DB9-DBS). Think Porsche with not putting the 911 engine in the Caymen......

The V12 Vantage-even if it did come to the US would be about twice the cost of the V8 or 3 times that of the GTR!! That is a whole different class.

A supercharger fixes all the issues

 

I will admit my biggest issue with the Vantage/DB9 is the lack of power....coming from S65/CL65 AMG's with close to 800 ft. lb torque is hard to beat.....the ASTONS have the look without the bite....I just cant live with that....So the GTR was first on my list....

Another factor is the GTR is an exotic...any car with limited production, great performance/engineering and stunning looks and appeal is a true exotic....

ZR1-exotic
F430-exotic
Gallardo- exotic
GTR- exotic
CL65-exotic
Camaro SS-not exotic
Challenger- not exotic
BMW M6-NOT exotic.....

The GTR is without a doubt a badass car to own/drive

We are all fortunate to have the things we do....Astons,GTR.s etc.....as here in America today it is truly a great feeling having what we have...

Mark

 

I agree with Mark here. Aston's of today were never intended for 0 - 60 times or speed racers. Aston's today are all about looks, presence , class and style. Hopefully the next generation of Aston's will also have the power to add to their already exciting looks and sound. Coming from a DBS , I can undoubtedly say that I am extremely satisfied with the torque of the wonderful V12 engine , but I would expect a figure close to the 600hp mark from a top-of-the-line Aston (excluding the ultra rare One 77).
So in terms of power , the Aston's are somewhat less exciting (if thrust and power are exciting for you) , but the GTR has plenty of power/torque right off the bat and can also be taken to murderous levels of torque/power with relative ease.

 

Power is also a big issue for me, but on top of that, I'm concerned about how delivery of that power is interpreted by the driver and passenger in the car. This includes launch inertia, engine and exhaust sound, body lift, gear changings (speed and smoothness), and many other factors. If you look back to my reviews after testing the 4.7L Vantage then right after the XKR, its pretty clear that the supercharged XKR was faster, but it just did not feel as exciting to gain the speed as the Aston did. The Jag has a good stock exhaust note, mostly above 5550 RPM though, but it simply didn't compare to the Aston. It didn't feel like you were thrown back as much, and overall wasn't exciting. The Aston felt like a unique experience; it provided a sense of theater that you were at a special event.

While I still need to find a 4.3L 2006 - 2008 Vantage to try, judging from all the comments in this thread: https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...sus-4-7-a.html and other places, I don't think jumping on it now is a good idea. The 4.3L owners are nearly always obsessing over more power, and at the cost of some very expensive mods that will violate your [extended] warranty and add stress to an engine not designed directly for the higher power (yes I realize Aston deliberately moderates HP in the Vantage to prevent it from encroaching upon the DB9/DBS owners superiority), and at a cost of upwards of $10k+. I'm sure I'd love the 4.3 Vantage, and right now thats the only Aston I can possibly afford (with some stretching too since I'd keep my G35 also), but I KNOW I'll get caught up in this lack of power stuff and end up spending big $$ in mods or dreaming of upgrading to a 4.7. Said another way, if we are just looking at power, the 4.3L Vantage's 0-60 is ~4.9s and my G35 coupe's 0-60 is ~5.5s. Thats not a big improvement, but as I said, the Vantage surely delivers a better sense of theater when obtaining that speed; but again, the G35 coupe is a very fun car to drive.

At this point, I've got so many variables and options and considerations floating around it my head (dammit, why does cash have to be a scarce resource!), I don't know what I'm going to do. The most likely outcomes will be (1) save $ and keep the G35 waiting for 4.7L Vantage next year (2) get a GTR and sell the G35 (3) Get 4.3L Vantage and keep G35 (4) ignore cars for 3 years and get a Ferrari F430, but that's a whole different animal with respect to ownership costs. I am nearly positive I'm not going to buy the XKR or M6, despite thier drastically lower price.

Ecks, I simply cannot tell you how much I'd love to see your garage someday!

 

Is there anyone around Ohio with a GTR who would be willing to take me for a drive? Dinner and drinks afterwards are on me .

I simply cannot find a used GTR anywhere near me, and with 100% consistency, the dealers are telling me no dice on a GTR test drive, "you should just know you want this car." BS. For a $85k car, I'm driving it first.

 

Hey Mike, following your plight and enjoying your research and posts. I too live in OH and had the same dilemma about a year or so ago. I called all the Nissan dealerships around Cleveland, and Northcoast Nissan seemed the most likely to play ball. After hounding them for 2 months for a test drive, I gave up. Instead I ended up at Marshall Goldman Motor Sales - they deal only in exotics, and advertise in DuPont Registry. I knew them from a previous purchase or two, and all of their offerings are low mile garage queens. They do get a GT-R in every so often. As you can see I ended up with a 996TT, but still plan to get into a GT-R in the next year or so. Literally, as I was driving to pick it up, Nissan called me to set up a test drive!
I have not been disappointed, the Porsche is amazing, but the GT-R will be next. I worry about Nissan's handling of the high end car- service, sales, and all the other extras you get from a dealership that knows how to cater to the high end client. I figure another year or so and Nissan will know better what to do when a guy in a Porsche shows up and wants to buy a GT-R.
Anyway, good luck with your decision - and if you do find an Ohioan that has a GT-R i'd also like to know - i'd even give him the TT for the day!
Check out Marshall Goldman's inventory - awesome stuff right here in Ohio!

 

It's funny you mention the 996TT just now. I was just about to write up a little post about the 996TT. I meant to try to find one to drive yesterday, and I can't believe how cheap they have gotten, especially since the body styles has had little changes in over a decade and performance is great, nearly GTR good, even in the older 996TT's. I was looking at 2002's with under 40k miles for $46k, which seems like pennies compared to the prices I've gotten used to looking at for the Vantage and even GTR, as does thier cost of ownership. The 996TT is really growing on me, and perhaps I will fall in love with it after a drive like everyone else. I've had some other thoughts and ideas for it that I'd like feedback from out Porsche owners...

My though was to get a 2002-2004 996TT becuase they are so low into the depreciation curve and can be had for $45k-$55k with unnder 35k miles, and there is also a good inventory of them available. Since the body style of the 996 and 997 isn't much different (well even back to 1997 I think), I thought the revisions they did in 2002 was a good target year. I'd then put on the 997 rims ($800 on ebay), and perpahs even tinker with muffler bypass exhaust pipes ($150 on ebay). I would not sell my G35 if I do this, and the Porsche would likely be in manual and driven 6k miles a year or so. Here's my questions.

1. I don't want to go too old, even if low miles, but any reason I should still look at a 2000 or 2001 996TT? I know it got a interior/stereo upgrade in 2002, but I'm not sure what other changes were made then. So what is the ideal year to buy in this range?

Why do some cars have a black background on the guages and some white? Is this a cheap/easy mode to do? I'd prefer white if possible, but I wouldn't change if its too costly.

Also, whats the situation with the X50 version? It has 444hp and anything else different?

2. Do I want the manual or triptronic auto? I've never owned a manual, but know how to drive them fair enough despite this (perhaps not well enough that I'm comfortable asking to drive one with the dealer yet though). Normally, I'm a fan of paddle shifters, especially when linked on a true automatice like the XKR, not a auto-manual like the Vantage, so the shifts are smooth and fast. But, Porsches shifters in the 996 are stupid buttons on the steering wheel, so how am I supposed to change gears when turning? I also think pushing a button rather than flipping a paddle is even one more step of sportiness removed. Part of me really wants to get the manual since this would be my second, enthusiast car for when I really want to drive, and I"ve always wanted to own a manual. A big part of this decision will be if I have enough room, but I think I do in the 911 series, just not the boxter/cayman. Which would you suggest given this?

3. I love the 997TT rims, and really want to upgrade. The 996 and the 997 rims are both 18'' (not sure on width yet), but could I simply buy a set of four on Ebay for $800 - $1k like this http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/19-Po...Q5fAccessories , or this http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/18-99...Q5fAccessories and then have the tires taken off the old ones and put on these? That would cost less than $1100 probably, and I can get some big discounts on ebay with gift cards and Bing. Are those rims really factory?

4. I might be interested to fiddle with muffler bypass pipes since they can be had so cheap. I know about the Fabspeeds ($450), but for somethign that is so basic in function and simple to install, I don't see why not just trying the $150 J pipe from Ebay that will accomplish 99.9% of the same thing. I've concerns that it'll be too loud and figured the ebay one was so cheap it'd be worth a shot. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Porsc...item2c4fe02b83

5. My understanding of the 996TT is that it should be quite reasonable in terms of maintainence, including ease of DIY and parts price, as well as reliability. This, and the lower price, is very important to me right now. Any noticeable issues I should be looking for in a ~2002 966TT with low miles? I'll obvously take it to a dealer to get it checked out too.

Thanks for your feedback.