There is still a big question concerning whether a stock Nissan GTR truly beats a stock 997 TT. Taking the Porsche engineer out of the equation, Driver's Republic, Sport Auto and Car magazine could only get the stock GTRs they drove around the ring in the 7:50's. Whether the Nurburgring "Suzuki-mobile" is truly stock is still a big question. Also, what good is a sports car if it's brakes fade and it over heats after a few laps?

 

All this whining that Nissan cheated, boosted it, race rubber, yada yada is sure sign that Porsche is unable to respond. I don’t care if it was for a lap and then the GTR blew up ~ either get the rules changed at the ring or you too can play the same game.

I think the writing is on the wall and the new coupe will kill the 911. The new shape will attract the buyer looking to impress the neighbor. Porsche will put 4 cylinder diesels in it and pass it on to Chinese customers that just want the badge. As the 928 volume dwarfs the 911 sales Porsche is forced to make a choice:

1) Spend millions on developing a second limited production coupe (911)
2) Reclaim itself on the ring with the 928 platform (good marketing value)
3) Focus on the next generation Carrera GT replacement (form the RS Sypder program) sure bet to get the crown back for a long time

In the mean time if they decide to build an RSR class (PDK, 450hp, 3000lbs) I would certainly get one simply because it will be a blast to drive but no more incremental upgrades ~ at least for me.

 

Porsche did respond. They took a stock GTR to the track and ran a 7:50-ish, just like DR, CAR, and Horst von Saurma. Plus, Nissan has a history of cheating. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck,...I have no doubt that Porsche could take a 997TT to the track with the boost turned up and run a 7:15 and claim it was stock, heck, a 996TT did that a few years back. It wasn't stock, but I'm sure Porsche "could pretty it up" and make it look stock. But Porsche has a conscious. I just get tired of hearing that the GTR beat the 997TT when in fact it did not. You can make a statement like that when you have a professionally sanctioned race, but guess what, there is no such thing at the 'ring. Only guys running cars under different conditions with god knows what done to the cars. All I know is that when you have independent journalists run the ring in a stock GTR under varying conditions, they come no where close to Nissan's ringer's time, whereas they can and do come close to Porsche's posted times when driving said Porsche.

 

USCCayman, I think you and I are a bit old school and share a different image of Porsche than younger buyers. I find it alarming that we're even defending Porsche numbers to a four passenger Nissan. I do see that other manufacturers are making greater image progress than Porsche has with the youth. I have 17 -18 year old car guys around the place daily. We talk. They love my GT3 but... They're image of Porsche is a company that competes with Nissan. I don't recall that when I was younger. They see my GT3 as very cool but very old design. And really were not on the track. Does 3 seconds difference around the Ring really matter off track?

 

so much better looking than the panamera

 

It is. The GTR looks especially wicked with a mat black wrap. Awesome.

 

There was also this GTR that will be in the same class as the new 928:

 

This proves that Porsche better step up the program because everyone else is.

 

I am not defending Nissan, but let's just take as granted that Nissan cheated and the factory car had 750hp and the one at the dealer (tested by Porsche and magazines) makes 500hp. Every indication is that the street cars are in par with 997TT and 997.1 GT3. The one at the ring was in par with Carrera GT and Enzo both in terms of handling and power at least for a few laps. I do realize cooling is a big factor in the design high powered cars and this is where Nissan/GM/Chrysler cheated. Porsche could easily set the bar so others can’t cheat ~ average time in 100 laps, etc. Regardless Porsche should be leaps and bounds ahead of GM and Chrysler if the want to continue to be respected for how they earned their name.

 

Did we really know or care if a 1973 911S was faster around a track than a Dino 246 Jaguar XKE, or 240Z? No not really. Did we care? No not really. What we did care about was that the track car [917] won on the track and the 911 was fun to drive on the street. The 911 was a 190 HP fun car. Everyone knew a 911 was a Porsche and a Porsche was a 911. Today a Porsche is a 911 or a Hatchback a sport Ute and who knows what next. Porsche doesn't need to build so many types of autos because they have VW money. [Ferrari has never yield to building a four door car or Sport ute. Why? Fiat money. And Fiat can build those.] As I've said before, VW will kill the Cayenne and Panamera. VW already has a Sports Ute. They have RR, They have Bugatti. Why did VW buy Porsche? Sports cars / GTs and Racing. I don't give a rats-*** how fast my GT3 will lap the 'ring. Question is what makes it unique to drive. Is it more fun to drive than a Nissan? I think so. Problem with the original 928 is that it didn't feel like a porsche. I owned one and it was a very good performing car that felt generic. And it wasn't pretty. It wasn't fun. It was just very good and very fast. My gt3 is also fast. Is it more enjoyable than my 73. No its not. It never becomes fun until I get moving Ring style. I don't. Its illegal. The old little 911? Hell Its fun at 40 MPH A shame because its become all about numbers. Thats why Nissan is a threat. We forgot about what makes these cars truly different. Do we know any longer? What is the difference between a GT3 and a GTR at 40 MPH? I'm rambling on. Thanks for listening.

 

^^^^ I agree with him too ^^^^^

So you honestly think Porsche should be worried about trying to beat a 600 hp Viper ACR around the ring as opposed to beating up on the Viper Comp Coupe, Ferrari GT, Corvette C6R, BMW M3 GT-R, Ford GT, Panoz Es. GT and Jaguar XK in REAL RACING?

THAT IS HOW THEY EARNED THEIR NAME!!!!! Not the nurburgring, hell prior to the 996, Porsche rarely even came out with ring times. Porsche never submitted their own time for the 996 Turbo, 996 GT2 and I don't even remember seeing one for the 996 GT3 straight from Porsche everything was submitted by third party testers.

Maybe it's you who's confused but IMO Porsce know exactly what they are doing and stopping the 40 years of development on a proven chassis to start from scratch on a new to take over the whole brand line is retarded.

Porsche could easily strap a huge wing to a CGT and call it a CGT-RS and go guns blazing at the ring, but those brands need the publication, Porsche does NOT. The Viper brand was on sale at the time of that run, needed the pub for value representation. Nissan was releasing a new car worldwide, and had to use a Turbo to get anyone to pay it any attention, and they needed the pub too. So why again should Porsche be worried about ring antics when they sell the most race cars EVERY YEAR?

Porsche sold almost as many Turbos in the US through Sep. 09 than GT-R that have been sold in the US since it came out ( 2500 to 2900) and that's just the Turbo in about half the time span.

They just wrapped up their 9th out of 10 years (I think, only lost once) ALMS championship vs pretty much everything worth mentioning.

So tell me again why Porsche needs to beat the GT-R/ACR on the ring to prove anything...... And tell us how your random photoshop rendering (not by Porsche) dream picture would do anything as the flagship of the corporation. If you actually think that will work you need to go back and study the Porsche history books.


..................................


P.S. you don't care if the car did one lap and blew up?

Well that's almost what they do.

 

Great post, excellent points HC!!!

 

Absolutely right on HC!

 

I disagree. VW failed miserably trying to promote Fahrvergnügen because what people in the US really care about with economy cars is reliability and their pocket book NOT how fun they are to drive.

I think ring times for performance cars are the equivalent of MPG for economy cars. A single number that fairly accurately sets performance expectations for street cars. I don't really give a rats *** about what happens at ALMS.

Answer your question, I don't in fact know what happened to GTR after the laps and I don't care because I am not in the market of one. The fact remains that the GTR beat a Carrera GT. Something the 1001 hp Bougati or 700hp Murcielago could not do and I am sure they were not holding back.

 

agreed