Burmester slightly over the Bose. However if it was my choice it would be aftermarket which would be slightly more money than the Burmester up charge.

The Burmester is a very nice system but... it has a few short comings

1.) the midrange speaker on the upper front door needs to go as it is too close to the occupant and takes away from the sound as you can clearly focus on both the midbass low in the door and the midrange as they do not blend correctly

2.) the tweeter position on the dash needs to be relocated to the bottom of the A Pillar, as the glass reflection isn't helping the cause

3.) the sub and the midbass that is low in the door has a gap in the sound. the output of the sub is fine but doesn't blend well

it isn't a perfect system but it is very good, my opinion on the center channel is still out, as I did not hear it do anything strange or sound overly bearing, but with me focusing on the midrange in the door and the gap of the subbass and midbass I really didn't pay too much attention to it

if it was me, I would do a 6-8" midbass in the lower door, slightly more on axis and add a tweeter to the A-pillar aimed more on axis or to the center of the sunroof. I would keep the sub, switch out the center channel speaker to a 3" midrange and separate tweeter and amplify accordingly. Of course I would at the audison bit1 processor to allow for time alignment and some Eq'ing

I would not do anything with the rears except turn them down a bit (fade more to the front)

Speaker choice would be Hertz Space if I could find anymore for the door and tweeters, and a hi-energy HL70 for the center. Amp would be audison LRx 6.9. processor audison bit 1 integrated also with the sub signal of the factory woofer.


the above would create a more realistic sound up front with a lot more impact.

 

Set the sound stage to "Symmetrical" and all other controls to "Flat" and tell me if you like it. The thing is atrocious with any other settings than described, very screwy time alignment in the other modes. And of course the midrange is pronounced because you're above the ATM drivers which is just nature of the beast.... High quality reference CD's, WAV files in other words, by far sound the best of any other source material on the Burmester. I'm an engineer and make records for a living and I can tell you well recorded material sounds pretty darn good on this system albeit I still prefer the Levinson system in the LS430 to check my mixes. I prefer the abundant power/headroom the Burmester has though... It's very much worth the price of admission especially in the Turbo.

The Bose systems sound better than they used too but from a mixing reference point of view will get you in real trouble due to their hyped low-end. Of course if you don't mix records for a living then the Bose will be fine. Be careful with midrange heavy material with the Burmester, it will take your head off and do damage (to your ears) at higher volumes...

YMMV

 

[quote=JBONDOx;2967104]Burmester slightly over the Bose. However if it was my choice it would be aftermarket which would be slightly more money than the Burmester up charge.


So is that to say that the Burmester isnt really worth the upcharge over the Bose? I am not an audiophile but would it be considered as good as an aftermarket system.

 

Good analysis, but isn't that just for you and the way you adjust the seats? A shorter or taller person with the seat set higher or further forward or backward would get a slightly different impression, wouldn't they?

And the redesign you describe might run into mechanicals in the door and dash that would require modifications to your ideal placement. These adjustments would, by definition, compromise your ideal. I'm sure that the engineers in the car's design and the engineers in the sound's design had many compromises to make or overcome. If the car had been completely designed around the sound system instead of the sound system designed to fit the car, then the car might not be as good.

The placement of the dash speakers to reflect the sound off the glass can be equalized and the cone formed by the A-pillar, the dash and the windshield utilized to direct the sound as if it is coming from the reflection point instead of the source.

I have the Burmeister system and have had Bose in 911's and Cayennes. They are both good, usually better than the source material available, but I give the Burmeister a higher rating than the Bose.

It is good to remember that the enclosure of the passenger compartment and the position of the listener is a very big part of the sound.

I don't think many people who buy a car this well engineered and this expensive are likely to cut into the door panels, the wiring system, and the dash to accommodate a "dream system" figured out on paper that may or may not sound better (untested) and will always hurt the resale on the car.

That's just my opinion, but I'll do my dream system in the living room where I don't permanently damage the room for the sound. I'm glad the car is as good as it is and I'll get over tweaking for the sake of tweaking.

 

I am not an engineer, but I know what I like. Given the constraints of a vehicle ****pit and extraneous interfering noise, IMO it sounds bloody awesome. It certainly isn't cheap. It is about the same price as the stereo upgrade in the Ferrari California and it blows that system away. For some, it may not be worth the $. For me, it most certainly is.

 

I suppose the interior of a vehicle is more properly termed a penilepit! Gimme a break with the censorship!

 

Ted I tried everything. Don't get me wrong it is a great system for an OEM. aftermarket is still better Of course with the right equipment and installation utilizing the factory PCM

 

It's the ribbon drivers. I even struggle with the ADAM's in the studio with the same problem. The very best solution is to use ribbons for the highs and conventionals for the rest. You're right about the OEM idea, just would be a nightmare with PCM/fiber I would imagine...

 

Yes they would, if they were not reclined back like I was they would be closer to the upper mid in the door which imo is too obvious that it is there detracting from the overall sound presentation/quality

no, it would not run into problems, I have been designing systems around cars for many many years and never chop the wiring or structural materials that make the vehicle what it is... to be completely honest the Panamera is probably one of the best interiors I have ever seen and find something different every time I look at it (semi weekly) that amazes me with the craftsmanship. I tend to design everything and implement it into factory locations, or if it is a panel less than $150, I will modify it to full fill my need and make it look as factory as possible.

You can equalize the dash speakers all you want, usually 1k and 2k hz need to be kicked back around 12db in a mid and 5k,10k, and 12.5k need attenuating by 3-6 db... but then the natural sound starts to deteriorate audible


me too

make sure it can go back to factory, like I said before I have done a few systems before, and with the gear I use, I can pretty much tell you what it will sound like before I unbox a speaker.

my opinion, anyone can make a house or a room sound good with little technique or savvy, a vehicle is way more complicated since the noise floor is 20x that of a house, pathlengths are closer and as stated before with the mid in the door, more noticeable if uncompensated or in the wrong spot.

I will be happy to clear out a space in my garage this winter to take a paper note and make it a reality and would even bet some money on it I am in Northern Ohio

 

The thing with the ribbons is that they are very directional... on axis (horizontally) they sound awesome, off axis and using the windshield... not so good.

I am wondering if they did the ribbons just to take from the home side to the car side (marketing)... I did a project with the mille ribbon from Hertz and it was a pain in the **** utilizing it as a mid... played very low for what it was (ribbon midrange) but placement was a huge issue... I think a big problem was the use of it as the midrange (900 hz and up rolling off the frequency naturally) where here they are using it as a tweeter... from about 5khz on up... (I think... as I never RTA'd it) long story short, a traditional tweeter would of been easier to place for over all sound and perform better. tweeter technology has come along way over the years... where ribbons have been a back burner (please do not tell Martin Logan that)

Let me just say... I am not saying it is junk as it is quite good, but with aftermarket... and with the right person you can have better.

Also, I would be hard pressed with the gear I use, to come under the $4k the mester has but do think it is possible.

 

You're absolutely right about placement, actually deleted that out of my last post to shorten. You must be in the right proximity of ribbons for them to sound good. If you stand up in my studio and get above my ADAM S5A's they're awful. If you get off axis they're funky, and if you give them an incorrectly treated 1st reflection point, you're asking for hyped mid/highs. This is what I noticed in the Pan Turbo even with properly recorded studio material and I expected/predicted it before I ever turned it on.

The addiction is they are so open and airy and these days can handle lots of clean power unlike the older M & L's or Magniplaners but using standard drivers certainly is much easier. I agree about the disconnections down low too, probably not enough, or big enough, subs. It's tighter than a drum but lacks some of the emotion of say an 18" passive would Just kidding about the 18 but get what I'm talking about. "Watercolors"(wish they'd quit smashing it so much, didn't use to), and well recorded orchestral stuff, sure sounds good through it though. On the other hand, boy those ribbons are ruthless in uncovering poorly recorded/compressed material.

 

Ted, great post! i love when people understand music and reply, and can reference a $7k speaker! I looked up the ADAM and was amazed that as a monitor, it is horizontal. By the look of it, I understand the "above it" sound statement also. Pretty crazy design, but I am sure they sound awesome!

As for the vehicles sound system, and the disconnect between the sub and the midbass, I thought about it a bit more. the output for the sub isn't bad neither is the midbass, so i would probably lower the crossover point on the sub to around 70 (I have to RTA it) but expect that the rear hatch area is affecting it and boosting the 80-100hz region. Part 2 would be to lower the high pass on the front midbass to around 50 hz.

i still feel the door midrange should be deleted, and that the ribbons be replaced with a conventional speaker as it might have been affected by marketing.

great discussion though!

 

Put a couple of pillows in the back seat, probably will come back

 

Could someone please briefly explain the sound processing settings on the Panamera's Burmester system?

As best I could tell, from a show room audition (therefore no time to read instruction), there are two separate controls?
1. Sound processing settings: live, etc., total of 4 different settings? What are they please?
2. Seat position? There seem to be 4 settings here as well? What exactly does this setting do?

BTW, I found the system to have outstanding clarity and transparency, with very very tight & clean bass. However, the sound is definitely on the bright side, with the settings that I was using: sound processing off (?), and seating position set to optimized for the front (?), and briefly for the other positions. The CD is Janis Ian's Breaking Silence; a well recorded cd with the engineers using Telefunken tube mics. Even for someone who owns Thiel speakers (with Krell and Conrad Johnson tube pre), the sound is too bright. I actually had the original ESS Heil AMT speaker in the 70's, plus currently own Magna Planar 3.5, and neither has the way too hot high end of this Burmester.
Sorry for the multiple questions. I am a little disappointed with the brightness and just want to make sure I had the sound settings correctly.

 

Could someone please briefly explain the sound processing settings on the Panamera's Burmester system?


As best I could tell, from a show room audition (therefore no time to read instruction), there are two separate controls?
1. Sound processing settings: live, etc., total of 4 different settings? What are they please?

I felt no processing was best.

2. Seat position? There seem to be 4 settings here as well? What exactly does this setting do?

DSP manipulation. Center is best. Front is way too aggressive.

BTW, I found the system to have outstanding clarity and transparency, with very very tight & clean bass. However, the sound is definitely on the bright side, with the settings that I was using: sound processing off (?), and seating position set to optimized for the front (?), and briefly for the other positions.

Yep, I concur and said this months ago. The "Symmetrical" will definitely help.

The CD is Janis Ian's Breaking Silence; a well recorded cd with the engineers using Telefunken tube mics.

Telefunken 251's do tend to be on the aggressive side. I certainly can't use them in all cases albeit it wouldn't matter with this system. It's just aggressive. Stuff like Norah Jones that's done with ribbon and dynamic mics would be much more suited for this system.

Even for someone who owns Thiel speakers (with Krell and Conrad Johnson tube pre), the sound is too bright. I actually had the original ESS Heil AMT speaker in the 70's, plus currently own Magna Planar 3.5, and neither has the way too hot high end of this Burmester.

It's because of the placement of the AMT drivers in the car. You're above them, off axis, plus getting skewed reflections. I don't think the amps they've designed are the best of matches either. Truly the Levinson system in the LS430 nailed it, maybe not quite as much power/headroom but sonically much better and more accurate to the ears. This is why I still have my '01 430. I use it to reference mixes, tells me exactly what I need to know. I've been doing more country as of late, working with Toby Keith, Blake Shelton, etc... This stuff needs to be on the aggressive side but not over the top. The Burmester would throw me for a loop, make me back off too much to compensate.

I was disappointed too. It's one reason of SEVERAL reasons I did not buy the car (see new thread I posted). You're not crazy, you're dead on Heck, for accuracy of mids I'd rather use the Bose in the Cayenne Turbo than the Pan but ONLY as a secondary reference to the Lexus just to verify. Also I felt the only thing the Burmester sounded really good on was CD. The regular radio was not up to par. It's a good idea but they're not there yet at least to where I need it to be...