hey, let me just suggest that you spend some money on your helmet...it is the only thing protecting you from knowing the stitching patterns on your porsche intimately...

 

but riddle me this batman...

If the helmet is SA2005 certified, arent they at least as good as they need to be? Do you know the difference between that one and a more expensive one, besides the price? Please share your experience, i would like to get some info on which helmet to buy

E

 

The difference is the comfort level and overall design. I can assure you that that helmet will not be NEARLY as nice to spend time in (and trust me, you spend alot of very, very sweaty time in your helmet) as say a Bell M4 or an Arai GP5w. Also, the helmet you are looking at will most likely be significantly heavier then some of the more expensive ones.

I would FULLY recommend the Arai GP5w...its definitely not cheap, but it is VERY comfortable, VERY lightweight, and looks great to boot.

 

Hoping this helps with your helmet shopping:

If you spend more than what's required to buy a basic SA2005-rated full-face helmet, you're getting:

* More extensively detailed materials/shapes in the liner in many cases (can be more comfortable for some because of a more complex system and shaping of padding molded around the head last/shape used in the helmet interior design, rather than a simpler padding system shaped from a more basic last).

* Some models feature shell materials such as kevlar, cf or a combo that will result in a lighter overall helmet weight (can reduce neck strain in a long driving stint due to lower mass supported/stabilized by neck muscles, but may not net a noticeable benefit in shorter driving stints).

* Some models will have adjustable inlet venting for non-FA (forced-air) helmets.

* Some models will feature aerodynamic exterior features such as chin spoiler and/or rear spoiler for improved downforce or less propensity to lift at high speeds in open-cockpit cars.

* Some models will feature ribbed shapes on top and/or sides of helmet shell to decrease or modulate the effects of wind buffeting in open-cockpit cars.

If you don't need the open-cockpit features, don't notice neck fatigue or don't drive long stints, you may not need some of the more expensive helmet features. It's purely subjective. You may try on a $1000 helmet and find the interior padding shapes fit your head more comfortably; conversely, some find that their head and cheek shape is less compatible with certain helmet interior shapes because the head last isn't a match for their individual head.

Safety-wise, all SA2005 certified helmets have passed the same impact, stability, retention, flamability, penetration and vision test requirments. They have all been deemed capable of meeting the current Snell safety standards. If you buy a $250 or $1500 SA2005-certified helmet, they have comparable safety qualities. It all comes down to best fit and the additional features mentioned above.

As for open-face VS closed-face for airbag-equipped cars, here's an excerpt from a discussion last year (this isn't me, btw):

"In the summer of 2005, I attended sled testing where Hubert Gramling from the FIA tested the effects of deployment on full and open face helmets at the Delphi research center in Vandalia OH. The results of the test were that any concerns over full face helmets and airbags were outweighed by the additional protection that full face helmets provide...and the concerns were not significant enough to discourage the use of full face helmets with airbags. Representatives from the SCCA were also present."

Mike Hurst
OLOA 01,02,03,04
Technical Director
Rally-America

I personally only wear full-face helmets on track. I can't risk objects damaging my eyes, and I certainly wouldn't want my face to be damaged by debris and become any uglier (if this is possible).

As for airbags impacting a helmet and breaking a jawbone with upward force vectors into the full-face helmet chinbar...I'd like someone to demonstrate how the driver's head could remain upright and take an upward airbag impact into the chinbar while the head rotates forward (which it does even with a h-&-n device) on impact in the miliseconds while airbag is deploying. This I find to be an improbable situation. Could an extremely tall driver take an airbag hit lower than a shorter one? Possibly. But then, we'd have to start the whole discussion about why you're driving on track at 80-120mph with a restraint system that was designed to pass 35mph crash tests...wouldn't we...

I vote full-face helmet at all times on track, and a head-and-neck restraint of the highest quality (r3, hans, hutchens v.II, isaac, etc...--this is another debate but the ones that pass SFI 38.1 are generally good choices).
I vote to remove the airbag if you're concerned (a switch, btw, is not the end-all solution as an airbag can deploy without electronic actuation).
I vote side head-restraint seat or driver nets (sprintcar-style triangular head containment net) to contain lateral head motion even with a head-and-neck-restraint.
I vote 6-pt harness system--properly installed, not for looks only or to get past tech inspection. Research it and follow the manufacturer's spec's. There are LOTS of unsafely harnessed drivers out there.

 

Many thanks Super D. The whole purpose of this thread was to find fallacy in the argument against using full-face helmets with airbags. +rep for you


A couple more Q's:

Assuming stock 3-point seatbelt is used, would it be better to leave the airbag intact or remove it? (I vote leave it)

Is S2000 Helmet acceptable anymore at most tracks? (Hmmm...I know one that will allow SA95!)

 

No problemo, amigo.

Your two Q's:

Q1: I don't think stock 3-point belts are safe for racetrack-speed impacts, and the airbag is designed as an integral element in the OE restraint system. If you crash within the range of forces (and angles) the 3-pt + airbag system is designed for, you may be fine. Above that range, you're gambling. And in a side-impact, without a side head-restraint seat, good luck. You are taking a calculated risk, gambling if you will, and whatever compromise you decide upon, it's anyone's guess how it will work out. If you feel comfortable tracking with 3-pt belts and an airbag, because you've seen many cars doing it without a problem, that's a judgement call. Crash one of those cars into a barrier or roll it off of a 3rd- or 4th-gear turn, and then you may have more data with which to decide what's best. And don't forget roll-over protection. You can either keep the roof off of your head with a well-designed bar or cage, or you can integrate your head into the roof, causing a terminal headache.

I wish it wasn't so inconvenient to make street cars safe for track use, but feeding tubes, wheelchairs and estate attorneys are even more so. If you want to trade one inconvenience over another, that's up to you. I used to make that trade, but only because I was ignorant. No more trading for this guy.

Q2: If you're asking whether the track should decide what's best for you, based on their minimum requirements, then I would say No. Get the most recently-designed helmet you can, one with several years more testing and engineering behind it, and one with materials that haven't degraded over time. If the shell materials have oxidized, if the EPS liner has been deformed from small impacts or otherwise changed properties, etc....take out all the "If's". You may never have an on-track crash, or you may have one or more. The key is to keep coming back and having fun, and learning from your mistakes--instead of donating your body to science. What am I saying, you're a doc, you've already donated.

Sidenote regarding helmet weights discussed a few posts above:
In Bell's example, top of the line "Ultra" and "Pro" helmets in 7.5"-7 5/8" sizes weigh in at 3.4-3.5lbs, while "Racer" helmets in the same size range come in at 3.9-4.1lbs. So if you think you're getting a huge weight savings by spending $3x, it's not so. Note that I'm comparing same size ranges. Helmet companies (just like bicycle frame manufacturers) may in some cases quote weights based on the smallest size in the high-priced model, and largest size in lower-priced model to demonstrate the range of weights they offer--so be detailed in your comparison of weights and know what you're really getting. It seems most helmet companies avoid the advertised weight issue altogether. And with weight varying due to hand-laid fiber shells, this is yet another reason not to publish specifics. I brought a digital scale with me last time I went shopping, and it was pretty interesting. This isn't to say that helmet companies in general will try to mislead consumers, that's not my POV. It's saying you should just see for yourself what things actually weigh in your specific size, and factor that into all of the other criteria in your selection process.

IMO, a .4-.5lb difference may be necessary for an endurance race, but not entirely justified for a DE with 20min lapping sessions (unless you have an abnormally weak neck--or disproportionately large melon). I've used both lighter and heavier (by 1/2 lb or less) helmets in cars and go-karts, and honestly didn't notice a difference. It would stand to reason that lighter should be better long-term for fatigue resistance.

 

I have done tracks days with closed and open face. I own a closed face because I feel safer and want to protect my face. I know SCCA recomends a open face but I want to protect my entire face. The problem is most people do not sinch the helmet strap down tight enough and their helmet is too big for there head.
I was involved in an accident on a motorcycle a few years ago and the paramedics could not get my helmet off me because it was on so tight. I feel that because my helmet and all my other gear was on very tight this saved me from other injury's and a lot of my doctors agreed.
Be sure you get a very tight helmet and wear it a lot as it will conform to your head a little and it will stay on better in an accident...also sinch that sucker down on your chin real tight. You may be uncomfortable at 1st but you will get use to it.
Mike

 

Thank you so much Sechsgang and Super D, just what i wanted to know!
My buddy has a few helmets that i am going to go try on, (BELL, Simpson, Sparco). My buddy likes the simpson the best


E

 

no problem man...you wont regret it!

 

As far as visibility goes... I switched from an open face (A $100 cheapie when I first got into the sport) to an Arai GP-5W. With the visor removed, there is no loss of visibility compared to the open face. Of course the "W" model features the wider eye opening for exactly this reason. Other closed face helmets might suffer from less visibility, so be sure to try out a few different models.

Also, for whoever asked about where to shop - try saferacer.com.

 

I ended up ordering one of the Pryotect helmets, i'll let you know how it goes


E

 

So If I have gt3 seats and using 3 points (stock seatbelts), open face is recomended, but if I have gt3 seats with 6 point harness closed face is recomended...what is it about the 6 point harness that you have to have a closed faced plus no airbags.... Sorry for being such a newbie

 

First of all, the closed-faced helmet with airbag and stock 3-points concern may be a non-issue according to Super-D's post above (#34). If you have a 6-point, go for the closed-faced helmet because it offers the most protection, and it doesn't matter if you have an airbag or not.

 

I think that "super d" above got a lot of the issues right. I would only (respectfully) add a couple of things:

1. In an autocross setting you are not on track that long and in sustained sessions. Plus the speeds are not out of the league where the stock street restraints are out of thier designed ranges. So, the weight issue etc. is not as big a consideration here over price I think.
2. If you are an instructor (in an autocross setting again) it is very hard to communicate through a closed helmet.
3. All high speed driving narrows your vision, so consider the peripheral vision constrictions of any helmet you buy.
4. My personal recommendation, probably should be the first thing to start off with; NEVER buy a helmet without personally trying it on. They do vary and sizes in one brand may not translate to another brand. ALWAYS try it on your head before you part with the money!

Oh, I buy from Sube Sports (not a board sponsor, sorry) in Huntington Beach California. The owner is a racer very up-to-date on safety rules and is really into fitting you with the right helmet size, price, and type.

I just bought a Bell M4 open face from them to Snell '05.

 

I agree w/Garey completely for autocross instances. Great additions to this thread!