This is why I'm now a member of 6Speed. It is too bad there is so much misinformation out there about HRE. One of the biggest challenges we face is trying to educate the consumer about us and wheels in general. For me, the more you know, the more you know that what is being said about HRE in this thread isn't correct. His assessment of quality materials and forgings is mostly correct, but he is assuming HRE doesn't do and use what he claims makes a quality wheel which is simply wrong. He has his argument right, but he is pointing at the wrong company to make his point.

In reality, I agree that quality materials are a necessity, but they're just the tip of the iceberg. I would argue that the engineering and the production quality and all the little details we pay attention to are what separate us from the rest. For us it is every little thing we do that separates us, not just the materials we use. We know we're not as big as BBS or OZ so we have to provide the highest quality and highest levels of customer service in the industry if we're to survive.

We know trying to fake it is a short-term strategy and one that many have used to be successful... for a while. Unfortunately they've dragged HREs name down with them when the party ended. I'm on 6Speed to show you how we're different and that we're here to stay. Not because we have good marketing (in fact I think our marketing is pretty poor at times in comparison to the rest), but because we do things the right way when it really matters.

Maximizing margins?? Don't I wish. I'd have the GT3 I've so longed for. We're working stiffs. We don't go around smoking $80 cigars and flashing our cash. A nice glass of 12 yr Macallan is my everyday luxury. An $8 Padron is a bonus. In fact, just about every component we use is the most expensive option on the market so if maximizing our margins were our goal, we wouldn't spend the outrageous sums of money we do on something most customers don't even care about... like the assembly bolts. WE know how critically important they are so we pay for the best. The customer has no idea and many don't even know they're functional. People also have no idea that we make these tiny pockets on the back of the center between the assembly bolts to minimize rotational inertia. You can't see it. It takes a long time to do and the customer has no idea we've done it but we do it because it makes a better wheel. All these things have a NEGATIVE impact on our margins but they help ensure our LONG-TERM success by creating a better product than the rest.

Everyone is shocked when they come to HRE for private label wheels because they've all gotten quotes from competitors. The difference is that the details cost money. They cost a lot of money and that is why HREs cost what they do. When I see the wheels they end up buying from our competitors (we usually lose the bid due to price) they're simply missing the refinement of an HRE so no wonder they're cheaper. At the end of the day, the engineering department drives our design and vendor/supplier relationships and quality comes first and if we can't get the quality we need, we just try to do it ourselves.

As for his comments about 5454, he is right that it isn't forged and HRE has never said it was forged... at least not to my knowledge and if someone from HRE has said that then I apologize. 5454 is spun and gets its strength from cold-working (no heat-treatment needed)... but in case I'm not making myself clear, we use 6061-T6 for almost everything we make so I am absolutely dumbfounded by the allegations. It is true that the 6061-T6 barrels aren't forged either. They're spun and heat-treated. The centers are forged 6061-T6 but in the 3pc world, forged is generally understood to mean forged centers and spun rims. Even a BBS LM uses forged centers and spun rims. I know because they use the same spinning machine we just purchased. I saw the LM wheel on display at the plant where our machine was being made in Germany. In 1pc, the spokes are forged, and the barrel is flow-formed from the forging (also spun). It is all basically the same thing. You either start with 5 mm sheet or you start with a solid forging, but you're changing the grain structure in the spinning (or flow-forming process) either way so a spun 3pc is similar to a 1pc forged.

For me, I'm not trying to give anyone a bunch of marketing BS. If that were the goal, we'd have a marketing guy as the primary forum presence. HRE has decided to use me for this forum because I can be a technical resource and help educate people about wheels and/or HRE. I'm the COO so I'm responsible for design, engineering and production and my background is engineering. I came from Northrop Grumman before joining HRE 10 years ago as "the engineer" and I have an MS in Mechanical Engineering so if you think I'm just a marketing guy trying to sound technical, it isn't correct. I LIVE the details. How many engineers get to be on the front lines of a company's public relations effort? It's a risk, but we know this is what is important so we can't pass this message to a marketing guy. They just won't know the details and it will be just fluff.

In stark contrast to the M3 post, I think the more you know about us, the more inclined you'll be to buy an HRE wheel, not the other way around. That is why I continually extend invitations to visit. I will give you a personal tour and it will start behind my desk looking at FEA, not in some fancy showroom. We're not big, but we're proud of what we do and how we do it. Visit the rest. Then come visit HRE. No need to call ahead. The door is open.

 

Here is a post I did a little while ago in response to someone asking for company background info on all the forged wheel companies. If you still think HRE is just a bunch of marketing BS, please just visit. I can assure you that once you meet us and see why, how and what we do, you'll understand what we stand for and why we've been so successful.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by JZRS4
that is the problem, they just post a pic. I want accurate info on these companies. So many with similar names, who are they? Where are these wheels made? Do you know their warranty policy? Its time for a matrix otherwise its easy, I will just buy HRE wheels at least I know who they are.
I don't even bother opening those threads anymore, pretty pictures, no specs, no pricing, no availability, no time to ship. Thanks, but no thanks.
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I guess if the bold statement above is true I see absolutely no reason for a matrix!!

Let's see where this goes and I'll see what I can contribute. It sounds like a great idea if it doesn't turn into a mess. The problem for me with a matrix is that it is never going to tell the whole story. For example, I can design a wheel that is load rated to SAE 600kg and make it weigh 17lbs. That may only be 65% of what I currently design our wheels to, but nobody is going to know that. They're only going to look at the weight and talk about what a great wheel engineer I am, when in fact all I've done is just under rate it for the application and it won't come close to passing TUV... but nobody will realize it. They'll just think I'm awesome when in fact I'm just being irresponsible (I don't do this BTW so rest assured).

I can give you a little info on HRE if you want. I'll try to give you some useful info that most might not know instead of just marketing fluff but let's see if I'm even close to successful.

Our wheels are made in Vista, CA. The company was founded in 1978 but the current management team has been in place since 1998. Our warranty is 2 year-finish, lifetime-structural. Our Monoblok is made from 6061-T6 forged aluminum with flow-formed barrels. The 3pc is 6061-T6 centers and usually 6061-T6 spun rims. Sometimes the rims are spun 5454. We currently buy our 3pc rims from suppliers in the U.S. but we have purchased an extremely "impressive" spinning machine from Germany to do this ourselves... in time. We also don't forge our own wheels which seems to be the newest thing we're being criticized about. We use Aluminum Precision Products for that. They are the premier forging house for wheels in the U.S. (and the most expensive). We have tried others to try and save money but they couldn't meet our quality standards and it just ended up costing us more money in the end with all the wasted time and rejects.

Our design, engineering, machining, powdercoating and assembly are done at our 60K sq. ft. facility in Vista which everyone is welcome to visit. We're not the biggest but we're proud of what we've accomplished and how we do things. Our engineering/production/quality control processes were audited by TUV and we received TUV Verification status in May 2008 for our facility allowing us to send wheels to Germany for TUV testing and certification. The M40s and P40s have been sent and have rec'd their certifications... and yes we do have the TUV serial number and logo along with the certifications in-hand to prove it. Testing is done either at STL in Ohio or in Germany for TUV. We now design and test to TUV specs... not SAE. An owner of one of the other competitive brands your talking about but didn't name (one we actually like hence his ability to get a tour) stopped by yesterday and his first words when stepping out back into our shop... "Wow." Sometimes I forget as I tend to focus only on the faults.

Our parts are sourced in the U.S. except our titanium assembly bolt for the C-Series which come from Alcoa of Germany. The stainless assembly bolts we use for the rest of our wheels comes from Automotive Racing Products (ARP) in SoCal as they're the only ones we could find that could make stainless strong enough. I assume a lot of you are familiar with ARP bolts if you're into racing. We pay a fortune for all of this so I have no problem telling our competitors as they'll most likely pass once they get a quote and realize the cost is 4-15X the price of normal bolts.

We don't typically build stock but rely on a build-to-order model. This allows for custom fitments and custom finishes. Lead-times used to be 4-6+ weeks for a typical HRE wheel, but in 2008 we focused on bringing that down to under 2 weeks for in-house finishes. We made a set of wheels today in 5 hours because they were going to Barrett Jackson and the customer gave us incorrect specs and we didn't realize until we went to bolt the wheels on the car. Not the norm obviously, so we were pretty proud of ourselves. We thought we had done a good job getting them ready originally in 4 days! Getting wheels ready in 5 hours was pretty cool. Getting "scrap" ready in 4 days wasn't. Please don't expect a 5 hour turn though as that was an extremely unusual situation. I'm sure all our dealers are going to expect 4 day turns now too!! We also have a dedicated customer service department that does nothing but deal with repairs, refinishing, warranty, etc. This is a very important part of our business, hence its dedicated resources.

We have entirely too many wheels styles for me to start listing specs tonight which I'm sure is what you really want, but I can get more detailed later.

Anyway, if you can pick out any useful info for your matrix from all this utter blah, blah, blah, go to it. Otherwise... just buy HRE!!

Lot's of smileys. Too bad I'm not that funny. __________________
Alan Peltier
COO, HRE Performance Wheels
www.hrewheels.com

 

I'll weigh in here because these M3forum quotes are not entirely correct.
First, there is nothing inherently wrong with 5000 series alloy. As Alan from HRE has said, 5000 series alloys have their own important properties. There are thousands of older HRE wheels in service using these alloys, and they perform well.
I was amused that 6061 was presented by the M3forum "expert" as the ultimate wheel alloy. Sure, 6061/T6 is a tough alloy, but there are other 6000 and 7000 series alloys that have different performance properties and much higher strength. They are not commonly used because they require different equipment, processes and heat treating (and cost a lot more). We use them at AMT because our military and aerospace customers require them and they have strength-to-weight properties that we find useful.

The comment about 8000 ton forgings was also a gross overstatement. The amount of pressure used during the forging process is not a direct indicator of forging quality. This is presented as some kind of "holy grail" message on many of the forums and is actually only a minor factor in overall forging strength and resulting wheel quality.

We build 3-piece forged wheels featuring both forged inners and outers for our three-piece private label wheel customers in Europe. The outers are NOT flow-formed, but are machined from a solid forging. We flow-form the inners, because of their width. We have learned that the extreme high pressures we use during flow-forming impart additional strength properties to the alloy as well. But all are 100% forged, some from 6061, some from other stronger alloys. (It helps that we have three forging presses). We have found that the forged inners and outers have superior strength and resistance to damage from common road hazards. They also form the backbone of our RainOut water elimination system.
We do plan to introduce our Tri-Forged wheels to the US aftermarket this spring. These will use only 100% forged components.

Like HRE, we commonly use ARP assembly bolts, but they are frequently out of stock on the sizes we use. We have found that aerospace grade 17-4 PH stainless bolts also work very well, having both high strength and good corrosion resistance.

I heartily agree with Alan on the issue of engineering. It is the foundation of every successful wheel program.

 

@Hre_Alan - Thanks for the very informative posts but I had a couple of questions for you if you don't mind.

1) Aftermarket wheels have standard sizes as governed by the wheel standard authority, as far as the drop centre is concerned on reverse drop centre wheels and regular wheels, does that have to be a certain standard dimension? Are the dimensions for regular drop centers different from reverse drop centres? Never really understoood this.

2) HRE wheels are forged in an 8000 ton press, does it have to be that much?

3) You said the barrels are spun out of 5mm thick sheets of aluminum, how are the two edges fused together?

Thanks!!

 

Thanks for the great information Alan, its refreshing to see a wheel Rep. in your case COO, come onto the forum and actually give useful information. For as long as I can remember HRE has been fighting the battle to "prove" themselves against these other wheel "companies" who are for the most part internet based firms who are simply resellers. It is sad that all of the information is posted publicly for everyone to read but the average consumer on any car forum would be surprised to see actually how many companies build their own wheels in house (cutting, etc). Whats worst is those companies who LIE about doing their own wheels in house. The wheel industry has turned into a marketing competition to say the least and it is causing mislead consumers to be cheated out of their hard earned money. At the end of the day the complaint everyone has which HRE is price and that is it! It is ridiculous at the end of the day I would rather give my hard earned money to a "legit" company that offers a superior product rather than one who has owners broadcasting their "lavish" lifestyles for everyone to see. Thanks HRE for providing IMO the best wheel in this industry and for being with us while all the other fly by night companies have come and gone.

 

Anyone know what 360Forged uses? They advertise 6061 T6 I think. Dont know much. But do any of you know?

 

First class outfit. 360 Forged uses 6061T6 centers and spun inners/outers.
This is identical to HRE and most 3-piece wheel companies.

 

I guess you would know since you work for 360.

 

You guys are well respected in the Vette community, always loved the 543's on a Electron Blue Z06!

 

Alan, I definitely appreciate all the input you've given! I am CURRENTLY the owner of IForged rims, er we have Iforged rims on two our of our turbos actually, and haven't been the happiest(will go into furthur detail in a few months possibly). With that said, what distinguishes HRE from IForged? The products for the most part do look the same..however the pricing is not. With that said, I am starting to believe, just from a laymans view, that HRE is of better quality, but in which what way?!

 

Sorry guys, been away from 6Speed for a while.

As for comparing ourselves to this brand or that brand, I'd rather not start a thread war with a competitor. If you search my posts I'm sure you'll find a lot of info about HRE and what I feel differentiates us. I tend to be long-winded but you'll also see that when I mention competitors by name, I tend to only mention the few where I have something good to say, otherwise I try not to say anything at all.

We've updated our website last week as well and I'll be writing blogs as we go along so there will hopefully be some interesting and helfpul info coming from that as well.